#164 The Complexity of Conservation with Robbie Kroger of Blood Origins

Emory: 0:21

Welcome back to the Byland Podcast. This is episode 164, and my guest today is Robbie Kroger of Blood Origins. Robbie is the driving force behind Blood Origins. It is a nonprofit organization that's dedicated to just conveying the truth about hunting and promoting conservation efforts, and I don't remember when it was that I found Blood Origins, but I do know that it had a major impact on me because I've always appreciated his approach to talking about hunting in a multifaceted way. It's honest, sincere and, honestly, it's just refreshing.

Emory: 1:08

Most recently, Robbie had posted something about the reintroduction of wolves into Colorado, and I found myself chiming in in the comments section. He responded and it hit me that I should probably just ask if he'd be willing to come on the show to have a conversation. He obliged after I reached out and here we are. We cover a wide range of topics, from the whole wolf situation to the importance of wetlands hunting as a method of conversation and entertainment, and also what happens if we were just end hunting altogether tomorrow in the name of not killing animals. It is a well-rounded conversation. That's just an honest talk about things that we're interested in and I really loved it. Robbie's a brilliant guy who loves what he does and he has an education to back it all up. There is no specific agenda or end goal other than to have a conversation about hunting and all the good and bad that goes along with it. If you're into that kind of thing, you're going to enjoy it Before we dive in.

Emory: 1:57

If you like the podcast and what I'm doing with Byland, you want to support the show, you can do so in a few ways. First, if you or anyone you know is new to backpacking, send them my way. I have a beginner backpacking course. There are links in the show notes. You can also just email me at emeryatbylandco to learn more. It's a beginner backpacking course designed to help people get up and going as soon as possible. Reduce that learning curve something that I wish I had very early on instead of spending years trying to figure it all out. So that's probably the number one way you can support the shows either take the course or send the course to someone who might be in need of it. Secondly, you can just help me get the word out about the show by sharing with a friend or promoting on social media or just even leaving a review. That's very helpful as well. And lastly, if you're feeling like it, you can donate to the show through a link in the show notes.

Emory: 2:44

There's a lot that goes into the show in terms of, you know, subscriptions and hardware and software. It all adds up, so anything you guys can donate, it really does help out. It goes a long ways. Even if you donated a dollar every month, that would be awesome. Plus, it shows me that the show is valuable to you. So there's that too. Any of those options are a great way to support the show and I appreciate any and all of them. To those of you that have donated, shared episodes and left reviews, thank you. I really, really appreciate it. It means the world to me. All right, that's it for me. Enjoy the show. Robby, welcome to the podcast. I'm really excited to meet you and have you on the show.

Robbie: 3:41

Well, appreciate you having me. Just had a crack to beer, so I'm ready.

Emory: 3:46

I know. Well, it's a little later in the day where you are, you are. I have a couple of hours to go before it's a little more.

Robbie: 3:52

It's Thursday before Christmas, it's Thursday before the holidays, it's basically the holidays you could have. Nobody is going to fault you for drinking early. That's true. That's true.

Emory: 4:03

Well, man, I got to say before we kick this thing off, I really enjoy what So, first off, I just want to say thank you for, I guess, keeping it real, man. put out and the sincerity of what you put out, and just like the honesty and transparency.

Robbie: 4:19

You're welcome. Yeah, I think that's the kind of brand that I wanted to build and now it's an organization and that organization has taken on that personality, which is it has an integrity to it, has values to it. We're super respectful, we're super sincere, super honest. Even just in the last three days, this whole wolf thing that's happened in Colorado and it's just wolves in general bring out the worst of people and I'm going to drop a video, probably tomorrow, in which I say I saying shoot, shovel, shove up. I saying kill all the wolves. I saying I'm illegally going to go in and take the wolves out. It's doing nothing to help our perception around who we are as hunters.

Emory: 5:13

Yeah, I saw the wolf thing. I was one of the things I wanted to ask you about, like where you're at. I'm just for the record. I'm kind of like there's multiple sides to every story and anytime, anytime, someone goes far left or far right and they lose the information. I just think there's like a balance there and, yeah, I'd be curious to know what your, what are your initial thoughts on the reintegration of wolves?

Robbie: 5:42

So to that point, if somebody has a single answer for a question around wolves, they're wrong.

Robbie: 5:47

Yeah, it's a nuanced super complicated, super complex issue, lots of stakeholders at play, with probably the most vociferous lobby on both sides of the equation tied to an animal. It's an alpha predator. We are alpha predators. A book by David Guaman called Monsters of God talks about why humans and wolves and tigers and bears have such an affinity to one another is because of the fact that we're both alpha predators and specifically wolves that we've domesticated into dogs. So there's an affiliation and a sort of an affinity to that animal. And then you've got, because it's so divisive. You have people on one side of the aisle that absolutely revere wolves, see themselves in them, see the pack mentality, see the connotation and characteristics of wolves being very much resembling their lives, see the intelligence in their eyes, see the sort of connection. And then you see people on the other side that are essentially see wolves as as as competitors, and that's why they have the hate and love on both sides of the coin.

Robbie: 7:07

I'm in favor of reintroductions of predators. I think it is something. If we have an opportunity as humans to put predators back on a landscape that they're extirpated from, we should do it. But it also comes with significant responsibility and significant cost. That is understandable. That responsibility requires management, and so I'm. You know the fact that the Colorado voters, through a democratic process, decided to put wolves back on the landscape, regardless of where they live. It happened, it happened democratically, it happened in the most democratic society country in the world, so we can't complain about that Two. You know, we don't know what's going to happen. Yes, there's going to be impacts on hunting. There's going to be impacts on the herds. There's going to be human wildlife conflict, but that's where you know people will pay out, the government will pay out for depredation. Things will settle in. But also the idea that we can manage them on a state basis, colorado CPW can manage them and that management can occur through hunting, is it should be on the table. It should always be on the table.

Emory: 8:18

It just happened in the EU. Is it generally when they reintroduce, are they? Do they not like the idea of hunting the wolves, like managing them that way?

Robbie: 8:29

No, no, no it's no wildlife ever gets reintroduced simultaneously with a hunting season, Because what is hunting? Hunting is management. Hunting is a tool to manage a population. When you're reintroducing animals, their populations are incredibly, incredibly small. So there is no reason from a management perspective to hunt them. But when the initial 15 wolves are introduced between now and the end of March, become 80 wolves, 100 wolves, 150 wolves, they're going to reach some sort of objective point where they're going to say, okay, we think we've got enough wolves on the landscape that are now contributing the ecosystem services that we believe we needed and wanted from a predator being reintroduced into the system. At that point then you can open up a season or take, because then your take is not going to take that population from 120 down to 20.

Robbie: 9:38

It's going to keep it at a sustaining level.

Emory: 9:43

How is that working in other states? Is that I know Idaho has, you hear, Idaho has wolves.

Robbie: 9:51

Idaho has 1,400 wolves or 1,200 wolves.

Emory: 9:56

Do we have the data on how that's going?

Robbie: 10:00

So we have the Fish and Wildlife Services. Initial restoration objective for wolves in Idaho has 120 wolves or 130 wolves something like that.

Robbie: 10:10

So there are 10 fold more in Idaho. Now Idaho has a full on. You can hunt them, kill them, trap them, snare them, whatever you want. To the wolves there's not really a season, no, it's just a tag. So you can get 400. I think they take 400 wolves a year, 450 wolves a year in Idaho, but the population is not changing. Sitting sits around 1,000, 1,100, 1,200. So they're really elusive creatures to hunt. They're not easy creatures to hunt. So they're there and I don't think again in this life, in this world that we live in today, balance is key and management is key. America is not the America of the 1700s when you had wolves running around. Yeah, that's 330 million people living in America today.

Emory: 11:10

I would say that's like my one. The one hangout hangout that I have to the reintroduction of wolves is I go back to this idea of we are not playing by the same rules that we were playing before the West was, you know, before we expanded West. There's fences, the elk are pushed, deer are pushed, so that's where, like to your point on the management stuff, that's my only hang up is like man, these elk and deer don't have as many places to go and they're gonna get constrained by fences.

Robbie: 11:43

they're gonna get constrained by highways. Yeah, definitely different rules, but at the same time, it's an amazingly laudable goal to try and restore the system to as best as best a place as you can get it right, but with full knowledge that management is imperative, and management when necessary is imperative. Not right now, not in Colorado, but Idaho, montana, wyoming, all managing wolves, and then it's now. Then it's just a matter of a balance of values at the end of the day values of people who love wolves in the landscape, values of agriculture about how they're interacting with wolves, whether it's lethal or non lethal removal, and values of hunters too. Right Of you know what's the carrying capacity of elk. So that's one of the biggest sort of questions out there is that Idaho's elk population has plummeted. Is it because of wolves? Yes, yes. Is it solely because of wolves? No, so did we have an overinflated elk herd 20 years ago, 30 years ago, in terms of numbers that we then got used to from a hunting perspective? I don't know.

Emory: 13:10

maybe yeah, yeah. So we don't have that. I mean, in the grand scheme of things, we don't have that much data to go off of, like. I mean, at the end of the day, when did we start counting this type stuff? The early 1900s, oh yeah.

Robbie: 13:31

From a population perspective, yeah, but that you know, the early 1900s, all wildlife was in bad shape. Yeah, all wildlife. That's why we got all of those regulations put in place, especially like Putman Robertson, which is that excise tax on hunters that has been pushing money back into state agencies to bring wildlife back. Yeah, elk were at like gosh. I don't know what the elk number was. Was it like 30,000 elk left in America?

Emory: 13:59

in the 1900s. That's a wild concept. There was nothing left.

Robbie: 14:05

There was hardly anything left in America no bison, no elk, no pronghorn, no turkeys, no whitetail deer at 300,000. Pennsylvania, I think, kills more than 300,000 a year now. No, that can't be right. Maybe it's right. One of these states killed that many deer a year now.

Emory: 14:31

So do you think that's healthy?

Robbie: 14:34

The population is 32 million of whitetail deer.

Emory: 14:42

How do we know what I mean? How do we know what health healthy is? I guess I Depend. What metric are we pulling it up against? Are we pulling it up against our desire to harvest and what the landscapes can sustain, or the damage Damage to private, to personal property?

Robbie: 15:03

Yes, all the above, all the above disease outbreaks and that's where you get.

Emory: 15:09

That's where you get the opinions.

Robbie: 15:11

Yeah, and again, it's all tied to. It's all tied to values. You know Jane Ellis down the street, who love doesn't like her pansies being eaten by white-tailed ears, and kill these deer, you know. Or Joe, blow down the street, who's like man I love feeding my white tail To different perceptions or opinions on. You know the status of white-tailed deer and their management.

Emory: 15:44

Man, how did you, what? How'd you get into caring about this stuff? Like, where did this all start from for you? I?

Robbie: 15:53

I, I I've, you know, from South Africa, from a South African being grown up in South Africa. It's an interesting little situation because in America you guys obviously grow up. You want to be lawyers, you want to be doctors, you want to be policemen, you want to be fine and just like kids in South Africa. But in boys in South Africa specifically, have another thing that they want to be is we want to be game rangers, we want to be the guy between behind the Land Rover jockey, driving people around, showing them cool things. And that's what I wanted to be. I wanted to be a Land Rover guy, I wanted to be a game ranger. And To do that, you know, you get involved in wildlife conservation stuff and and then it just evolves from there.

Robbie: 16:38

And when I was 16 years old, my grandfather took me to this incredible wilderness Called the arch of anger swamps, which is in Botswana. It's an incredible, incredible wildlife paradise and I fell in love with swamps. I fell in love with like water and reeds and mud and Wildlife and fish, and just I fell in love with it. And so that was when I was 16. And when I went to university for the first day, I walked into a professor's office and I said what do I need to study? To study wetlands.

Robbie: 17:07

And luckily the South African system underwent a lot of work. The South African system, unlike the American system, is a very Subject-driven system. You don't have to do all the general stuff, you don't have to take organic chem and English and all the junk that you have to take when you go to the university here in America. I had to take botany, zoology, physics and chemistry and statistics my first year and then thereafter that was just environmental conservation, biology, topics From geology, geography, botany, zoology. I didn't take a single genetics course. I didn't take a single microbiology course. I just focused, focused Restoration, ecology, conservation biology, behavioral ecology, invertebrate ecology. That's what I focused on, and so I worked and did that. I got a Bachelor of Science, got an honours of science, got a masters of science and then the next logical step after that was a PhD and that's how I came to the States and and to a PhD in the States. Wow, I got a PhD in wetland ecology and aquatic biogeochemistry.

Emory: 18:11

What was it about wetlands that I don't know.

Robbie: 18:14

You just attract just that was it I was. You were riding along a boat in the Ock of Angus swamps was super clear water. I didn't realize why it was clear water, but now I know it's an oligotrophic system that was super nutrient poor. That didn't allow for any algal blooms to occur. So the water was crystal clear and I could look 10 feet down into the water column and I could see hippo trails on the bottom and hippo footprints on the bottom of the, on the, on the, on the, on the floor of the other river channels. I was like, man, this is cool, this is cool. And catching amazing fish and seeing amazing wildlife, I was like, yeah, that's where one do. There was it. And plus, I just had a love of wildlife. Right, you just have a lover being in the bush in South Africa. That's just what you love about it.

Emory: 18:59

How important is wetlands to an environment? Is it central? Is it kind of like what's it? Is it if you were to take an environment? Is it equal parts, or is it the center of it? Or is it the outside? Do you know what I mean? Like if you could put it on like a map.

Robbie: 19:14

A wetland. Think of it like this a wetland is like a kidney. That's its function in the landscape. What is your kidney doing your body? Cleans, yeah, clean. Cleans, yeah, cleans. Takes bad blood on the top and pushes out clean blood on the bottom, okay, takes out all the impurities and stuff. That's what a wetland does. Wetland takes bad water on the top and cleans it through different processes and makes and makes good water coming out the bottom, also great habitat for all sorts of critters. It also serves as sort of a buffer zone between water and land, and so there's wetlands everywhere.

Robbie: 19:54

You just don't realize you're seeing a wetland. Every ditch that you see in California is a wetland. It's got a little bit of water, it's got a little bit of soils, got a little bit of vegetation and it sits between a open water body and a piece of up, the piece of terrestrial land. That's your wetland and it has many, many, many functions. It processes nitrogen, phosphorus, sediments, as you know, home, nursery, home to birds and fish and insects. It's brilliant. And so you can incorporate wetlands everywhere, and that's why, when people sort of build so much and so much land is taken out of production, ecological production, the one of the first things that are taken are wetlands.

Emory: 20:39

Yeah, can I? Can we tangent there for a second? So I'm in Southwest Washington and there's maybe there's a boom everywhere. I don't know where the boom. I don't know where these people are coming from, or, like, if they're, if the places that come in from are depopulated and we're getting more populations.

Emory: 20:59

But I've grown up here my entire life and as the story goes, you know, you just see, like you'd always hear those stories of this used to be a field and stuff like that and then you know from the older generation I remember growing up and you hear that stuff like town used to be here, and then now it's here and and I'm getting to the age now where I'm starting to recognize drastic change in the landscape and in Southwest Washington I would actually say we actually have quite a bit of wetlands, like it's a.

Robbie: 21:30

It's quite prolific, in fact you get a lot of rains, right.

Emory: 21:34

Yeah, yeah, you got both ends everywhere, and so I'm used to like the, the geese migrations and the ducks and all that kind of stuff and just like driving by fields and seeing Standing water in the fall and reeds and grass and stuff like that, and I would say in the last, I don't know five, six years, all these fields are going away and and I just can't help myself but think, like what are?

Emory: 22:05

What are we doing here? Like these fields and these small little crops of forest are getting completely stripped of everything and for track homes, and it's not like the homes are built with like a lot where there's like still trees and there's still dirt and there's like standing. I mean, it's literally just like bulldozed streets, houses, no foliage, nothing, and then they move on to the next plot of land and it's just keeps getting eaten up and eaten up and that's fine, I guess. But my question is what are we doing to like reinvest? If we're going to take this, this Grove of trees that has all kinds of habitat For deer and birds and whatever's, are we taking that and then making good on the back end with something else? Because I don't think that there's like a pipe that of hey, we're going to take this.

Robbie: 23:07

No, you're not making any more land right, and we're not, we're not, really. We're not making more habitat either right conservation wise?

Emory: 23:14

we're not. It's not like those construction companies are like paying some sort of tax that goes into conservation are they?

Robbie: 23:21

in some places they they are, for I will say no, I wouldn't say some place, most places they are. So if you are going to go into just a general field, any kind of any kind of construction, new construction today, will require a permit from the army Corps of Engineers, and the army Corps of Engineers is going to ask for wetland delineation on that property, and so you're going to have a consultant come in that is going to say, yes, they're wetlands or no, they're not wetlands. And if they are wetlands and this guy goes, the developer goes, I still want to fill the wetlands in, then typically there is a mitigation requirement to do that and typically your mitigation is more than the wetland itself. It's normally a two to one, three to one, four to one mitigation. So if you're going to take an acre of wetland out, you need to go put four acres of wetland in somewhere else.

Robbie: 24:15

And I don't know if you've heard of the concept, but that's why they've got these things called mitigation banks. Okay, now, I haven't heard of them, which is people who have, which is people that have gotten smart and say, okay, we're going to build wetlands, we're going to restore wetlands and we're going to restore 25 acres of wetlands or 100 acres of wetlands, then we've essentially have created a bank. Now that's someone that needs to purchase wetland credits in a bank, somewhere in a watershed specifically, can come to us and they'll pay us A ludicrous amount of money to buy quote, unquote one of the wetland acres that we have already restored. It's a little unfair, but it's just how it works, so there is some compensation.

Emory: 25:13

At the end of the day, I guess there is some compensation for taking away wetland, but it doesn't solve the situation.

Robbie: 25:22

that is, say around where you are, if all of these fields that used to be wetlands, that would have operated as like a sponge. So when rain rains and you guys get a lot of rain, those sponges just fill up with water and then slowly leak water out. Now those sponges aren't there anymore and it's just concrete and tarmac, which means there's no sponge anymore. It's just literally water rushing off those areas downstream. So you're going to have extenuating circumstances like erosion and a lot more stuff happening downstream, because the water is going to be moving a lot quicker, a lot flashier than it would have if you'd have all these big sponges in the landscape just slowly leaking out water off to big rains.

Emory: 26:11

Is it reasonable, is that a reasonable approach to take wetlands away and kind of just like re-deposit them somewhere else and create wetlands somewhere else? Is that a reasonable approach to a region?

Robbie: 26:25

It's the best way to do it because it's very regional specific. So sometimes it even gets cloned down to like a little they call them Huck 12s which is a watershed right. So if water falls within a certain area, that's it's all going to come to one spot. So if you're removing a wetland in that area, that's all funneling to one spot, you have to replace a wetland in that same area. You can't go outside, you can't go somewhere else and buy wetlands. You have to do it then right there.

Emory: 26:59

I know wetlands around here is pretty because we have a lot of them, but is wetlands pretty much? Is it generally accepted that those are to be protected?

Robbie: 27:09

Everyway, they're up on the scale.

Emory: 27:14

All around the world. That kind of going back to my original, my earlier question on how, if you were to put them in the center of the circle or on the outside, sounds like they're pretty near the middle.

Robbie: 27:26

Yeah, they're the, you know, one of the only wet landscape features worldwide that are protected.

Emory: 27:38

Because they're just acknowledged as being key.

Robbie: 27:41

Yeah, and they're sort of agnostic around the world, like you have wetlands everywhere and they're just key. They have the same function everywhere.

Emory: 27:50

Now growing up in South Africa and was your, were you keen on the hunting aspect of it? Were you keen on the showing people, like this idea of like a safari or like taking people out and showing them? Was it a hunting related passion or was it a environmental related passion, or was it mixed?

Robbie: 28:14

It was environmental. I didn't hunt at all in South Africa.

Emory: 28:17

Oh really.

Robbie: 28:18

My family was steeped in hunting but I never got to hunt per se Like I got to hunt like doves and pigeons once. But we never talked about hunting. We were in a hunting family, we lived I lived in a town of 8 and a half million people in Johannesburg. So it's like growing up in LA or growing up in New York. I just didn't have friends in the circles that hunted. Nobody really talked about it. So the love of wildlife and love of environment came from just you know, the whole protecting, conserving game ranger living in the bush. You know going to the bush when you you know sightseeing wildlife, that element of things. So it's very much an environment conservation-based sort of love of things.

Emory: 29:06

What was your initial, what's your introduction to hunting? How old were you?

Robbie: 29:13

Yeah, my introduction was, you know, I did have an introduction to hunting through my father, my grandfather, was all written, he was all in the written word and trophies on the wall and stuff like that. But my first like real, like oh wow, you can actually do this, you can go hunt, you can go hunt regularly, was when I arrived here in the States, in Mississippi, to start my PhD and, just you know, met folks that hunted because it's very, you know, deep hunting culture in the South. Everyone hunts, everyone talks about hunting. That was just a natural progression for me.

Emory: 29:49

I'm curious what your thoughts are on. Well, I guess let's start here with hunting and pairing it up with conservation. One of the common themes you hear in hunting is hunting is conservation. Yeah, I'm.

Robbie: 30:10

What do you think?

Emory: 30:13

I don't think it's.

Robbie: 30:14

you can't say that Is the activity is the activity of hunting, going on a hunt Conservation.

Emory: 30:26

My gut tells me. Here's where my brain goes. I really badly want to say yes. But I want to say yes, but I don't know if I'm being, if I my head says no. To take something off the landscape would not be to conserve it. But I've also been trained or told to think that hunting is conservation and what I've kind of come full circle on is not taking anything at face value, knowing that there are multiple sides to coin Somewhere in between. I think I believe that hunting is a part of the big conservation plan, like it plays a role but is not and I don't know the phrase but like you can't just say full stop hunting is conservation, nothing else, is it. I kind of tire of that tagline because it leaves out a whole element of A whole group of people that don't hunt.

Robbie: 31:32

Yeah, no, look, you can't. It's not, it's not a panacea to itself. Ok, so many, many different things are conservation. Hunting as as an activity, as an action Is, can be conservation in two, in two worlds. One is a population management component. So there's too many deer on a landscape, we're hunting them to reduce the population, thus conserving the habitat. That is a direct action of hunting being conservation. The hunting of invasive species, taking out pigs, taking out animals that are not supposed to be in that landscape by hunting them, is a direct form of conservation.

Robbie: 32:15

So there you have two examples of where hunting is conservation, but those are two very, I would I would say I would say rare Situations for the vast majority. What? When people say hunting is conservation, what they're actually meaning is that indirectly Hunting is conservation.

Robbie: 32:37

Yeah indirectly, people are investing, you know, millions of dollars in protecting habitat for hunting. Indirectly, the revenue generated by people doing all over the world to hunt is helping employment, is helping schools, is helping medical facilities, is putting water infrastructure into rural communities, is providing, you know, I've said employment already All of those things come as a result of the action of someone hunting. They didn't necessarily go to hunt to do those things. That's the difference. So you know, again, controversially, I've said it in front of lots of people have open speeches with it, saying OK, everyone in the audience put your hands up who believe hunting is conservation. The whole audience puts their hand up and I said, well, you're all wrong. And it's like gasp, oh, my God, I can't believe. What's this guy going to say?

Robbie: 33:41

I thought he was pro hunting and I say, yeah, directly, hunting is not conservation, but indirectly, everything that you do is conservation. You know, if you just want to just boil it down to habitat and wildlife, you know the other. The other example that I had in the back of my brain was, if you know, you mentioned that, oh, how can you kill something in a bee conservation? Well, sometimes, like I'll use rhinos as an example an old, cantankerous old bull Will kill young males and females Because he's just a curmudgeon and he's not getting. He's not getting the females that he used to get and he just wants to just rampaging. In that case, taking out an old male Does help the population.

Emory: 34:32

You know what was missing in that? My comment was intent, motivation, motivation. I think the vast majority of what we see online and most people that are hunting are doing so for entertainment, about entertainment purposes and I hate saying entertainment purposes, but at the end of the day, I don't think there's anything wrong with that, no.

Robbie: 34:59

And the thing is, when you say that, immediately someone jumps to oh you enjoy killing things. Right, that's the entertainment value that you get, which is not the case. The killing part is actually anti-climatic, sure, because it means it's the end, it means it's finished, the entertainment is finished. So, actually, paradoxically, if it hunting was entertainment, we would never kill, because we would never actually get to the end of the thing that entertains us. So Entertainment comes with the place, the landscape, the relationships, the people, the adventure, the experience, all of that. So, yeah, that's the whole sort of foundation of the anti-hunting rhetoric, and it's tough to get away from Because we do kill things and you know they say you're killing things for fun.

Robbie: 36:08

That's why you guys are smiling all the time. He said you kill things for fun. And I'm like, oh, people are smiling in that photo because they took 12 days to get one opportunity and they skillfully, you know, were able to thread a needle of a bullet into an animal and it died instantly, and that's why they're smiling. They're not smiling at, you know, celebrating the execution of that animal. It's the entire pie that they got to eat and the kills just happened to be the cherry on the top of the pie.

Emory: 36:52

Man I had. This is really good timing. I had this gentleman on. His name is Dan Wildcat. He's an indigenous author out of Oklahoma and he we had a really interesting philosophical-esque conversation. He enlightened me.

Emory: 37:11

I had always equated my experiences in the wilderness with hunting and backpacking and hiking the PCT and all that stuff. I'd always come away. I'm like it's spiritual, it's spiritual, it's I don't know whether word for it, but it felt spiritual, it felt like a higher thing, very difficult to explain. And he rephrased it and told me that he he perceived it as being experiential, like it's experience-based. And when I started looking at all my activities in the outdoors, with hunting and backpacking and these moments of like bliss and excitement and what, the ones that meant the most to me, they were all rooted in experience. They were an experience of something.

Emory: 38:01

And when you hike the Pacific Crest Trail, you every long distance backpacker that's ever hiked the AT, the PCT, the CDT, the Arizona Trail, anything, or their favorite local trail they are.

Emory: 38:18

You've met them before. They are rooted in that trail system, like that's where they belong, they believe in it and they will go and maintain it, they'll spend their time there, they'll donate to it, they'll talk about it. You see the same thing with hunters. They care, they've had this experience, this deep enriching experience, and then they become very, very passionate about it, and I've started thinking of this everything as experience. And that's where you get experience related and and that's where you get people to invest back into the landscape is when they have these experiences. They, they, they reinvest either their own time or resources, they start organizations, and I feel like if we lose hunting as a culture, we are losing a massive piece of our own history and our own story and our own human experience, and I think that would be a very sad day and I cannot imagine living in a world where you have zero access to the full circle of life.

Robbie: 39:27

Well, and what's counterintuitive and the paradox that we again we live, is that it's difficult for people to understand that. You know, it would be a sad day not to have wild life, not to have wild places, not to have great habitats that we could explore, that we can experience, that we can show people and for the vast majority, that's happening today because someone values an animal enough to kill it.

Emory: 39:59

Yeah, and that's really. That's such a strange concept, but it's just the reality of it.

Robbie: 40:06

Well it's. It's a strange concept when you think, like an animal rights person, at the individualistic level, which is that one animal means everything, that one animal doesn't mean everything. The population means everything. Yeah, that's where we focus. Can we keep and maintain, sustain and increase that population over time?

Robbie: 40:31

This one individual is going to grow old and it's going to die. It's going to do whatever it needs to do to perpetuate the population, perpetuate its genes, same thing that that hunters are thinking about. That one animal that's going to grow old, that just so happens to have big horns or big antlers, because it's an old male man. That animal is going to die in a year or two. Would it not be best to get a little more value out of that animal, like money that will then protect the entire population and then not just that animal is protecting the habitat that it lives in, and so you can't really put a value on all of the other stuff that it's protecting the butterflies, the bees, the flowers, the trees, the dirt, the wetlands, keep going. All of that stuff is protected because someone values the idea of having an opportunity to take an old male animal that's done what it needs to have done, that's past its reproductive prime and it's just living out its days now.

Emory: 41:56

Is there? Do you think that there is a like? Let's pretend we live in a world where it feels like right now. There's like that since the early 19th century or 19th century, 20th century, 19th, whatever it is Like there's been like the hunters have been at the handles of conservation, it feels like, and in the last decade or so it feels like someone else is trying to get their hands on the controls. At least perceptionally, that's what it feels like. If hunting were to just let go and let another generation or another conservation structure take over, would we notice a difference?

Robbie: 42:43

if hunting were no longer around. That's a good question. I think the only other approach that would come to bear would be well, let nature take care of itself.

Emory: 42:55

Yeah, that's the idea right.

Robbie: 42:57

Yeah, we're completely hands off. Now we're out. Well, that's been tested. We have examples California and mountain lions Cannot hunt a mountain lion. Since 1974, I believe in California Outlawed it, made it illegal hands off approach. Let me ask this question Do you think more mountain lions died today through killing, or do you think more mountain lions died through killing through hunting before it was bent?

Emory: 43:35

I would imagine the population is much larger, so they're probably dying off naturally more Not naturally.

Robbie: 43:44

Today, more mountain lions are killed through depredation, contract killing.

Emory: 43:50

Got you they were hunted when they were hunted.

Robbie: 43:55

That may be because they were the stronger population. It also may be to do the fact that we've got a huge urban population expanding into California mountain lion habitat at a rapid rate Little branchettes coming outside of Los Angeles up into the mountains now interacting with mountain lions more. Maybe that's why they're killing more. But let's rewind the clock a little bit, so OK. Well, what was the purpose of removing hunting as this management tool for wildlife? What is the goal there? The actual goal is so that nobody kills any wildlife anymore.

Emory: 44:41

Yeah, that's it. That didn't work, because they're being that's not what.

Robbie: 44:48

that's not going to work ever. You're just going to now get. You're going to. You're going to find more. Animals are needed to be managed. Animals are going to have to be managed. Human population is constantly increasing and changing and moving around the landscape. Our fingerprint is constantly moving and changing on the landscape and thus management is going to lie at the feet of the wildlife agency of the state. And they're just going to instead. Here's the here's the biggest conundrum. Before mountain lion hunting was banned in Colorado, in California, mountain lion hunters paid the state To hunt lions. Now the state is paying Quote, unquote hunters, but professional contractors to kill mountain lions.

Emory: 45:44

Yeah, I'm glad that you're spelling this out for people, because that is a very. It makes no sense. Yeah, the killing's gonna happen. It has to happen, Like these wolves that just got released in Colorado. Going back to that example, if Colorado outlaws, I don't even know if they don't have any wolves, I assume.

Robbie: 46:05

So it'll be a while they did. That was another part of the whole wool over the eyes, part of the initiative two and a half years ago, but it doesn't matter.

Emory: 46:16

So if from here on out, the Colorado bans wolves, wolf hunting, like they're just like, hey, regardless, we're just banning it, like they did in California on Mountain Lens, At some point they will meet max capacity, they'll do damage and someone will need to come in to kill them.

Robbie: 46:34

Correct. To manage the population Not while they won't be managing the population, they'll just be taking out the individuals that are interacting with humans that are problem animals.

Emory: 46:47

Or you open up a hunting plan and you A regulated limited managed plan for hunt wolves.

Robbie: 47:01

Benefit on the backside with funding, funding and reduced human wildlife conflict. Are we just stupid? No, well then what I've tried to do is expose, like, what's the basis of things then Like, okay, why are people interested in getting rid of hunting? It's not because they care about wildlife. They don't care. They couldn't give two shits if mountain lions die or wolves die. They just don't want any humans playing, acting like God and saying, okay, we're going to do the management. They just don't like the idea of hunting. End of story, that's it. Just like you love to drink Kurs light. I hate people who drink Kurs light. My mission in life is to get rid of Kurs light.

Emory: 48:01

That's it. I don't like it. I don't like it.

Robbie: 48:06

I don't like your lifestyle. It does not fit with my lifestyle and I'm doing everything I can to get rid of it.

Emory: 48:13

Man, I really that's unfortunate. You know what I mean.

Robbie: 48:17

It is.

Emory: 48:19

Like that's so.

Robbie: 48:21

But that's the activists, right, that's the activists. If you found and there's lots out there, vegans who are doing it for the right reasons Not fanaticals, not radicals, not and you tell them hey, I hunt, I use all the meat, my freezer is full of meat. I know exactly where that animal lived, I know how old it was when it died, I know where it died, I know who processed the meat, I know whose hands touched it and everything about it, they will tell you that's as close to a vegan lifestyle as you can get. We just have chosen not to take an animal's life. But if we were, from an animal rights, ethics perspective, hunting is the way.

Emory: 49:17

How do you think we're doing on the perception of hunting it's changing.

Robbie: 49:22

It's changing. But people ask me that question all the time and typically my answer is well, it took us 30 years to get to where we are today, to have a bad perception problem, a bad PR problem. It's not going to be. And then now we've got social media right. 30 years ago we didn't have it, or 20 years ago we didn't have it. So it's going to take us a little while to get out of this, jim.

Emory: 49:48

In all your research and your study and your just conversations. Was there a moment in time when I assumed there was always people that didn't like the idea of hunting? I don't like that. There had to have been. When was the? Was there like a ramp up situation? Is it social media? Is it internet? Flow of information Is?

Robbie: 50:11

it the Well. It's probably twofold social media definitely, because hunters have not changed the communication styles before and after the advent of social media. So our communication style is here's a great picture of me standing behind a great buck that I killed and I sent that to you in the mail typically went to the local Walgreens and printed out a bunch of pictures and sent them around the world to people and that communication style just translated into social media. But that communication style was never meant for everyone, right? Yeah, it's just meant for you and me. So we haven't we haven't changed our communication styles. So social media certainly has altered the perceptions around hunting. I think the fact that we have a very strong animal industry industrial complex.

Robbie: 51:04

And so you know, the availability of meat is very easy today, in fact, as you you know, let's be honest, you don't have to hunt, yeah. You don't require a meat anymore, yeah, and so that's the other thing I'm putting in. Super hypocritical of people when they say I don't like hunting, yet they'll go out for a ribeye and it's like okay, that ribeye didn't die, didn't belong to something that was living. Oh, that's different. I got mine in the grocery store. It's like oh, okay, yeah.

Emory: 51:43

Hey man, I remember when I saw a pig get pictured for the first time as a kid I was far more disturbing than shooting a deer of my own, mm-hmm. But I mean for real, more, way more disturbing. Oh so sure, I think it just felt, uh, and there's nothing, nothing wrong with butchering a pig. Obviously it was on a farm, it was our pig, but I remember watching it and I was like this is way more disturbing than pursuing an animal in the wilderness and harvesting it. That way Social media and hunting Are we at the apex of hell? No, he's going to get worse before it gets better.

Robbie: 52:29

Oh yeah, Social media. If you look at all the like social media apps and platforms and whatnot, I've got this graph that I use in presentations. They're all at an still at an exponential growth curve. They're just still screaming through the roof.

Emory: 52:49

I feel like hunting. So hunting influencers, it's a it's I don't know how to describe it, but I feel like their intent is misplaced. I think they're in. At least it started as being misplaced.

Robbie: 53:04

What do you think? Why do you think their intent is misplaced? What do you think their intent is?

Emory: 53:09

I mean, maybe that's a better I think the same intent is to to, like, send me a picture. Well, I mean, I think what they think they're doing is they're just we're about to get in a web of confusion, but I think they start out sincere with the idea that they want to share their experience and they want to show you their kill, and that's a weird concept, but I think we do it because it's not a weird concept.

Robbie: 53:38

So we've been doing it for its communication style, it's not weird for hunters and hunters it's not weird.

Emory: 53:46

It's a weird concept for someone that's not a hunter Like that's a weird idea, correct, but for a hunter it's actually very, it's a, it's a language, almost.

Robbie: 53:58

Correct and so you're right. The intent is to communicate and experience a hunt thing with hunters.

Emory: 54:08

But I think that somewhere along the way it gets abducted by this idea that you can Profit off of what you're doing out there. Your experience and I hold hunting. I find hunting to be it's more it's. It's different than if I snap a picture of the wilderness or I kill an animal in the wilderness. Those are in a profit from both of them. They're not equal.

Robbie: 54:46

Why not?

Emory: 54:47

Because you're, because a life hasn't been taken like it's heavier, like taking a life is heavier in my opinion, and it should be regarded as such and protected.

Robbie: 54:58

You're saying you're not allowed to, we're not allowed to make any profit off of.

Emory: 55:02

No, no, no, not at all. I'm not saying that at all. I think that it should be handled with care. Like I don't, I would never say that you can't profit off of the wildlife because there's industry, there's very important industry. I mean there's a whole outdoor industry, hunting industry, baked into to this thing.

Emory: 55:24

But it seems odd that we did go through a period of time in which you hear about market hunting and making making money off the backs of wildlife you know, selling them and things like that and going and hunting for the purpose of making money from it. And I ask myself a lot if we're in like a digital market hunting era, because I've personally met people that never hunted before. They see an opportunity and they just want to become, they just want to make money from it and I'm like we're getting into weird tears, like it's just, I've had to back away from the discussion a lot because I'm like I think it's more complicated than that. I don't know where I land just yet. So I've kind of I used to say a lot more and have a lot more stronger opinions, but now I've kind of just like reserved myself a little bit more and observe, because I'm like, because hunting to me is a very personal experience no-transcript For the time being. I want to keep it that way, yeah.

Robbie: 56:39

Because I don't know the damage that.

Emory: 56:41

I'm, I don't know what I'm doing by putting it out there, and I don't, I don't know, I guess I don't know, so I don't you know.

Robbie: 56:50

Yeah, I think that sort of hunting influence a brand, wildlife profits hunting commodity product space. A lot of people, not a lot of people. I think some people will look at that and frown upon it and go, man, that's bad, it's a bad example, it's a bad look for hunting. I honestly don't think people care outside of hunting. I really don't think they give a shit and they don't understand it. They don't realize it.

Robbie: 57:22

I think the only influence that comes out of hunting into the non hunting space or into the anti hunting space is when you see bad imagery that shows disrespect to wildlife. Yeah, if I had to be very specific, that that's the thing that comes out internally. You know that's fair. I don't think it means nothing to anybody. I think the strife that you feel in the hunting community is exactly to your point. People in the hunting community hunt for different reasons and there are a lot of people that hunt for the purity of the exercise. The purity of the hunt should never be monetized, should never be used as a means to make money, and that's a perfectly acceptable position to take. There are others in the industry, in the community, that have said I'm making a living from this.

Robbie: 58:33

It's like the American dream right, the American dream, and you can't fault someone for making an American dream and taking a business and doing a business and something that they love. Couldn't agree more, and so I think that's where you see the strife. I think it's internal values around this thing that we love so much and I think that's where you see the strife, and I think they couch it a little bit in oh, look at this outward projection that we're showing to the non-hunters and anti-hunters and I'm like I don't think they care, I don't think they talk about it, I don't think anyone picks up about it because it's the. I think every single community in the social media landscape has the same thing.

Robbie: 59:22

Yeah, so the branding like okay the guys that climb El Capitan in Yosemite right and make money from it and do videos and take people. I bet you there's a sector of people in that community going. How dare you? Of course.

Emory: 59:36

Desrecrate what we do. I was I had an experience recently with where I was out with some guys that were just trying to like they were trying to do this. They were trying to create a brand around hunting and I kind of was just like this is weird, like because my approach has always been I'm going to do what I do and create content around it and I'm not going to pursue I'm not going to pursue certain actions because it creates content. Like I'm very rigid with myself about that. I'm very analytical about myself, because it feels like that keeps me true to who I am and my actions.

Emory: 1:00:18

I don't want to become someone else because there's a. I don't want to do an action because there's a benefit in it for me, I guess, if that makes sense. And I was with these guys and they were just like we got to do this for this brand. We have to do this for this brand and we're going to do this because it'll get more traction for this brand that we're trying to get a deal with. I was like this is such a weird way to hunt, like I thought we were just hunting.

Robbie: 1:00:52

But you know what do they say? Different strokes for different folks, right?

Emory: 1:00:55

Right. And you know what was funny about it. I was like this is not for me, I'm just going to look. And I was like, cool, I can mark this off my list, like if this is what this required to do this world, I was like I would rather just go hunting and and like, do it, do it for me. But again, different strokes for different folks. But I am my only hope, my here's, my wish for the hunting industry in the next 10 years is that those that hold purse strings, brands, begin to take an active role in controlling the narrative of hunting and controlling the content that is presented a little bit better than they do.

Emory: 1:01:43

The obsession with, like the kill shots and how good those things do, or this like how many animals can you kill in a year? Type stuff. I don't know that it's helpful. I'm not saying that it's wrong, but I don't think that it's helpful. And to your point about like, why do? Why does someone care about? Why does someone not want me to hunt something? Well, they don't want me to kill it and if all I'm doing is creating content around killing something, that's not helpful to their cause. So, and I think it starts with a brand and the brands, setting the tone for where we need to get to as an industry, as a industry or as a activity, as a way of conservation. Because if that's not done and the brands don't control that with their content creators or who they sponsor, I feel like it just gets out of control and then the votes come in, because I mean? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there's anything in the Bill of Rights saying you can hunt. I don't think so.

Robbie: 1:03:00

Like no, well, we're working. Some organizations are working on a state by state basis to add a constitutional amendment at the state level for a right to hunt and fish. So there are some people doing that? No, I think you're right. I think I would actually change your desires just slightly to say the brands that have the purse strings invest in people like us at Blood Origins and say you guys are flying the flag to the non-hunting majority that we need, so here's some money to keep doing it.

Emory: 1:03:39

Yeah.

Robbie: 1:03:40

That's what I want selfishly.

Emory: 1:03:41

Yeah, what's your long term hope? What are your long term plans for this? What's your dream scape look like?

Robbie: 1:03:51

Grow, grow everything, grow the voice, grow our impact, grow our influence and really go ahead.

Emory: 1:04:02

Is there something that keeps you waking up in the morning to keep doing it over and over again?

Robbie: 1:04:05

Yeah, I'm scared. I wake up every day. I'm scared man. I'm scared that I've come full time into this man. I'm neck deep If I don't do what I do, I'm gone. That keeps me scared too.

Emory: 1:04:25

You got to find something else to do, gone.

Robbie: 1:04:28

Yeah, probably, but also scared like man. I'm not working hard enough, I'm not producing enough. I'm not producing enough content to change narrative. I need to keep doing it. What are we doing? We're doing it now, there's no breaks, and eventually we want to be positioned such that, if anything happens around the world type to hunting, we have reacted already, we've put out something about it already, and the world press turns to us and goes huh, what do they say? Let's get the information from these guys.

Emory: 1:05:02

I can see, man, I can see that you've done a very good job. I feel like when something happens, you get right on it and keep doing it. That's a really good approach. How do you feel like Blood Orange is received within the hunting community?

Robbie: 1:05:24

I think very, very well Positive.

Emory: 1:05:25

Yeah, hell yeah, totally different, we're totally, totally different.

Robbie: 1:05:31

Externally same we're a breath of fresh air. Yeah.

Emory: 1:05:35

I mean, that's how that's. I told you at the beginning of the conversation that I've always appreciated your narrative on stuff, your perspective on stuff. It's nuanced, it's not binary, it lives in the gray area, because that's where most truth lies is in the gray area.

Emory: 1:05:56

The second you get into the fringes it becomes binary. And that's where, like, I'm not married to my ideas. I just know that my path with hunting has gone up and down and it ebbs and flows and sometimes I feel connected to it and sometimes I don't. Sometimes I feel one way about it and sometimes I don't. I think that's healthy. At least for me it's healthy and it keeps me coming back to this idea of like asking myself why I do something. And lately I would say that I've begun enjoying other activities.

Emory: 1:06:32

Hunting and will always be at a core, like I'll always probably do it, I just don't know how often I will do it, but to me it's like a baseline.

Emory: 1:06:40

It's like I can rebaseline myself with some hunting and it keeps me connected to the natural world in a way that just straight backpacking or hiking can't do. And I really sincerely hope I'm raising two little girls and I really hope that I can share a hunt with them one day and I, because I feel like it's it's very powerful. You see it on. So you see, I have a couple of friends that take their kids hunting and you can see how powerful it is in a very good way and I think it's such a core part of who we are as Americans. Like, hunting is very important in the culture and certain aspects it's very important. It can benefit us as people. I want to protect it, but I also know that I have to do it in the way that. I have to do it the way I want to do it, like on my own terms. You know what I mean.

Robbie: 1:07:41

Yeah.

Emory: 1:07:42

And I was recently finding myself hunting to go hunt. Does that make sense?

Robbie: 1:07:47

Yeah.

Emory: 1:07:48

I was like, oh, every October I go hunt blacktails in the woods up above in the mountains. And then I was just on autopilot and I was like I don't want to be an autopilot anymore, I want to. I want to really be a little more sincere about this and and understand why it is I'm doing this thing. So that's kind of where I'm at in my old hunting extra, my hunting journey, and I think it's it's been fun to explore and it's allowed me to have different perspectives and talk to different people and and not be like so binary about it.

Robbie: 1:08:30

That's awesome. Yeah, man, that's awesome.

Emory: 1:08:33

Thank you so much for the conversation. I know we have a wandering, a wandering conversation, but that's why I like to do things. I appreciate you, man.

Robbie: 1:08:40

Thank you man, I was dreading the whole, like I honestly dread conversations where I'm like all right, this is my background, this is my story. Oh really Blood origins got started. I don't dread it, don't. Oh yeah, it's just you do it all the time I just it's, it's you know, wash, rinse and repeat, yeah. And so just having you know good discussions and good questions and just meandering and running down some rabbit holes, I really enjoy so much. I appreciate that.

Emory: 1:09:07

Dude. Yeah, no, I really appreciate your time for everyone that's listening. Where should people go to learn more about you? Blood origins.

Robbie: 1:09:14

Blood origins. Just type it in anywhere you'll find us. How not hard to find Is it? Is it just you? Do? You have a small team, just me, full time. But then we've got a pretty good contract team that's called you know, fixes all the bits and pieces that we have and keeps the well oiled machine running. But what you see, sort of face value, is me. Yeah, and if you DM us, you're DMing me and yeah, just reach out, let us know how we can help you Keep us aware of things that are happening on the landscape. We need a, you know, we need our mole underground network to grow. So if you have any insights and things happening, send it to us, just know about it. And then if you've got an extra, you know, bit of change in your pocket and want to donate the cost of a cup of coffee a month to us. I know that Starbucks. I think a Starbucks small black coffee nowadays is like 498 or something like that.

Robbie: 1:10:14

So if you want to give us, if you want to give us five bucks a month and just you know, give you a cup of coffee a month. We'd love to have your support. That's awesome.

Emory: 1:10:22

Well, thank you so much for your time, man. I would be honored to have you on again if you're ever up for it.

Robbie: 1:10:28

Hell yeah.

Emory: 1:10:37

All right, that is it for episode 164 with Robbie from Blood Origins. Thanks so much for tuning in to follow up on anything we mentioned in this episode. I've included links to all of it in the show notes, so be sure to check those out when you have a chance If you haven't introduced yourself yet, please do. I love hearing from you guys, so please hit me up anytime you like at emery, at bylandco, even if you just want to say hi, that's it for me. If you headed out on an adventure anytime soon, be safe, make great decisions and we'll see you next time.