SPEAKER_02 0:31

So, if you are new here, that is what this is all about. This is episode 130, and my guest today is Corey Ford. I met Corey through the Expo Mountain group folks, and as you will soon find out, he is a wealth of knowledge in both the hunting world and just general outdoor activities. Corey is on the show today to talk specifically about this concept of weak ankle attack, whether or not it's a real thing, and what we can do to address it, slash fix it, and go about uh kind of working out that issue. This episode stems from a conversation that he and I had uh a while back where he basically schooled me on my lack of understanding about how the entire body works, and specifically the feet and ankles. By the time this episode is over, you are going to have an entirely new outlook on footwear, how your body functions, and what kind of support you need for your feet. There is a ton of great information all throughout this episode, and it's probably one that you'll want to revisit a few times afterwards. For those that are having trouble with their feet, their ankles, and finding the right shoe or boot, you should come away from this episode feeling very encouraged. Before we dive in, if you are new to backpacking and you want to save yourself the time learning how to backpack, so you can just get right to the good stuff and enjoyable parts. I have a beginner backpacking course that you want to check out. You can find the links to the course, the Facebook group, and other fun stuff in the show notes. So be sure to check those links out. Okay, let's dive into this week's episode with Corey Ford. We're recording, man, so don't say anything stupid.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

We're live. Right. Everything I say is going to be stupid.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

Let's just set the record straight. Um you're gonna bust my chops. We're probably five miles from each other. But I only have one microphone.

SPEAKER_00 2:46

Yeah. I can't imagine that you couldn't muster up a second mic somewhere. I mean, we could be viewing this in the the confines of the biland headquarters.

SPEAKER_02 2:58

But multi-million dollar two twenty square feet office.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

Right. Yeah. The multi-hundred dollar square uh home office.

SPEAKER_02 3:08

Oh man, dude, this this episode is such a long time coming.

SPEAKER_00 3:13

Just a little while.

SPEAKER_02 3:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

You know, busy schedules and stuff, you know.

SPEAKER_02 3:17

I feel like it goes back to I did an episode with Josh Kirchner about boots, and then we talked about weak ankles, and then you literally called me, and I wish that I could have been recording that phone call because I was on a walk with my little girl. You called me and you were like, we need to talk, and then we did for like an hour and a half. And I was like, we should probably turn this into a podcast episode about weak ankles or what people seem to think are weak ankles, because you educated me quite a lot. So this is the result of that.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

It is well, and and and on top of that, I mean that we've had several other interactions in and along the way. It's not as if we're sure a weak ankle booting. We've spent lots and lots of trail miles together, whether it be you know, our trip around Mount St. Helena's last summer or you know, death hike in the past, like there's there's been other opportunities for us to be together. It's not like it's just this, but we've we've had lots and lots of good conversations that probably would have resulted in phenomenal content. Yeah. Um just need to be able to have like a record button on your phone. But we only had one mic.

SPEAKER_02 4:27

Only one mic.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

We only had one mic. So hey, when when that one mic wasn't at Violent headquarters.

SPEAKER_02 4:33

When when this episode takes me over like a million dollars an episode, then we'll just build out the most awesome studio ever, dude.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

Right. Yeah, that'll happen. Yeah, and then we can get together all the time and chat. Uh okay. I'll just visit just for fun.

SPEAKER_02 4:50

Before we get into weak ankles, do you want to just give give do like the ground truth on Corey Ford and let everyone know who you are, where you're from, like why we're even talking?

SPEAKER_00 5:01

Sure. Um, well, I don't I I don't know if I can answer that last part.

SPEAKER_02 5:05

Well, we're gonna find out by the end of this episode why we're talking.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

Maybe. Yeah, maybe. Um yeah, so my name is Corey Ford. I was born and raised in Kelso, Washington. Um, small logging town, hunting fishing community about 45 minutes north of Portland, Oregon. Um I have been an avid outdoorsman my entire life. Um thanks to my father, who was a forester for the largest private timber owned uh company in the Northwest for Warehouser. So I I had I had the luxury of being guided at a very young age by somebody who was also a very avid outdoorsman. Um I went to Western Washington University, I got the degree in uh exercise and sports science with an emphasis in biomechanics, kinesiology, and exercise physiology.

SPEAKER_02 5:54

Yeah, buddy.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

I have a minor in nutrition, and then in the hunting world, um I've been a backpack hunter for probably the last roughly 20 years of my my hunting career, I guess if you want to call it that, in 43. So I started backpack hunting in my mid-20s. Um and then I got involved with a gentleman by the name of Shannon Mobbs, whom I graduated with his two younger brothers and went and grew up wrestling with Shannon. And uh known him him and his family for a long, long time. And he's part of uh he is the uh original founder of Angry Spike Productions. So for the last 10 years in in my bow hunting career, I've been hunting with Shannon, and we specialize in Roosevelt elk, but we hunt everything, man. I mean, we we've gone on trips from Arizona to Hawaii to you know Oregon, Idaho, Wyoming, um, Alaska, uh all over the place. So I've got some some really good experience from you know backpack hunting, car hunting, camping hunting, you know, all kinds of different styles in the past, but that's kind of me in a nutshell from my um you know education and and then into my hunting stuff. My day job, I'm uh I work for a specialized pharmaceutical company and I sell a drop for in eye care. So I talk to ophthalmologists and optometrists all day long, um, which is kind of neat. And that's uh that's what I do. But I I cover the state of Oregon, um half the state of Idaho. Uh I used to cover Alaska in my previous for my previous company, so I I have the ability to travel, uh especially to places where I get the you know the luxury of being able to spend time outdoors, which is pretty awesome. So I can tie in a lot of my personal fun stuff with my work stuff as well, which makes it convenient. Well, dude, I think that from that perspective.

SPEAKER_02 7:49

Uh in our time just like talking, like as you mentioned, we spent two days, two full days essentially hiking around Mount St. Helens talking literally the entire time. And the thing that I got from you is like, holy cow, man, like your experience goes, you have a breadth of experience that a lot of people don't have. And when we started talking, I remember when we talked about the boots thing and the ankles thing, which is a major topic for a lot of people, like people always talk about how well I can't wear that because I have a boot or I have a weak ankle and I had a foot injury, and I have to have these high high top boots that go up to my freaking groin so that I don't roll my ankle. And I'm coming from it at a very ignorant point of view because I rolled both of my ankles and I was in the Marine Corps to the point where I felt like they were just weak and floppy. I don't know if I could say that anymore. I don't roll my ankle much anymore. And I when I hiked the PCT, I thought that I would be rolling it a lot, and I'm not saying it didn't roll because I think a lot of people's ankles just naturally roll uh when they land a certain way. But I feel like it's changed for me, and so I'm ignorant to it, but you, if anyone heard that like spiel on the on the education side, dude, like biomechanics, like that's or biomechanics, is that what they call it? Yep. Yeah, dude, that's like how the human body works, like the mechanics of it, right?

SPEAKER_00 9:19

Right, yeah. And it all ties together um, you know, also with kinesiology, which is the you know yeah, basically the the study of the body in motion, right? Um, which was you know primarily my emphasis, which was kind of cool. And I I did get I I do I'm not gonna say cheat a little bit in some of my conversations with people about stuff, but I I did I tap into my education a lot and and I was involved in some research studies that we did some stuff uh in my biomechanics labs and things like that, uh where you know we were using force platforms and we were using some pretty high-end uh equipment to to test certain things. I mean, we did shoe tests, we would do you know, abnormal gait tests, we would do all kinds of crazy stuff, just you know, basic research. I mean, uh a lot of it was bait you know, based on theories of stuff we would have to come up with with the course, but then you had to do what it's any scientific study would do, and you know, you come come up with a creator theory and and prove or disprove that theory. And uh that was that was a fun thing to do. And then I got to do some uh some projects with some of my professors with regards to research for some big companies like pre-corps and other companies like that, and we were helping to design and develop their uh their equipment that they were using. I mean, this is back when the ellipticals were just really starting to become a thing in the gyms, and so we were looking at all kinds of random stuff, and so I get to nerd out on that a little bit just based on some past experience, and then but it's it is kind of neat to be able to transition that knowledge over into what nobody would think, like, oh biomechanics, yeah, how's that work? How's that work in the hunting or hiking industry? And well, actually, let me tell you how, right? And then have this conversation.

SPEAKER_02 11:00

Well, and that's my point here is like not only do you it's rare that you're gonna find someone that has both an educational background in it, but then also you're not a one-dimensional outdoorsman. You're multidimensional, like, yes. Are you passionate about hunting and have you hauled out a lot of animals on your back with multiple pounds of meat, like heavy loads? Yes. But also you've been involved in like the death hike stuff with the Exo Mountain Gear guys, where you're hauling you're you're hauling weight over distance or covering distance, or this most recent year, covering distance and snowshoes and weird conditions and like uphills and downhills, so like underload, under stress, both emotional and physical that has to have an impact on how the body performs. And when we started talking about it, I was like, holy cow, like there's a whole world here that my understanding of the simple concept of weak ankles and ankle support and how boot where boots work and where they don't, and and the journey someone goes through to find the right footwear. Dude, that's why we talked for like an hour and a half about something silly like weak ankles.

SPEAKER_00 12:08

Right. Yeah, and I mean, I don't want to spend an hour and a half just talking about weak ankles, but you know, that's a misinterpretation that a lot of people have with regards to is the ankle actually weak, or is it that you have lax ligaments and unconditioned uh muscular structure to support the ankle itself? Um, you know, some people are are predisposed to having uh more lax ligaments than others, you know, somebody that's extremely flexible and whatnot, but that doesn't mean that you're that you're you don't have the ability to train that laxity out of your system, you know, and that's that's I think the concept that a lot of people have is if if you see if I told you you have weak biceps, well, what are you gonna do to improve them, right? You're gonna go to your curls and what it you know it's no different than with your ankles, you know, and they just have to understand the support structure of the lower calf or the shank as they call it, in its ability to support the ankle itself, right? You have your gastroxoleus, your gastrocnemius, you have your peroneus brevis, your peroneus longus, all the major muscles that support the ankle through a gait, your step, your stride, all have to be conditioned, or else you're going to fall victim to spraining an ankle. If that happens, then what? I mean, if you know anything about an ankle sprain, it takes a long, long time for a ligament to repair itself. Whether it's an ACL or it's the deltoid ligament in the ankle itself, like once those are are stretched and torn, for them to return back to normal, it takes a long time. So then in that in that instance, what do you need to do? You really need really need to strengthen everything else around it, or else your body's gonna continue to injure the same thing. So, you know, it can be a very, very in-depth conversation as far as what what that is from individual to individual, and how much of an impact do boots have in that support system, and really how much of it is just conditioning. You know, the main reason why you probably didn't sprain your ankles hardly all on the PCT is because you conditioned your ass for that hike, you know, and you weren't your body wasn't in a position where it was going to deal with small sprains of that nature. Um, and and some of it's becoming more conscious of the things that you're doing too, but you really have to you know take all that into consideration when when you're looking at what's considered to be a weak ankle, which is really just you know a term that they throw out there that's it's almost like a media made-up term and some of the stuff that we're dealing with now. It's like it doesn't really mean anything. You know, your ankles aren't weak. I mean they're they're a mu they're a bony structure.

SPEAKER_02 14:41

So so how where do you um stupid I see this is the fun part, I get asked all the the like silly questions. Okay, you have you go to REI and you see the wall of shoes, and you could hike in any of it. You could hike in dance shoes if you wanted to. Um you could walk barefoot, all of these things, and you could be hiking. But everyone has their own special need. And it's I think it's always very confusing when you go and you see a wall of shoes and you have these uh these tails, quote unquote tails reps that you're supposed to ask for advice that have zero idea what the heck they're talking about. They just know that the brand Loa is pretty nice and it's really supportive and it goes up over your ankle. Uh how in the world? Like you've seen it across the board, you've you've talked to other hunters and hikers, um, you've seen it in forms. Like I passed you, I passed a guy off to you, I was like, this guy posed a question about, hey, I'm looking for this, I have a problem with my ankles, and I was like, you need to talk to Corey Ford. You chimed in and like educated everyone on it. But where do you even like how do you begin knowing if you need a boot or if you need a shoe? Like, do is there a way to break it down on the footwear side to be like, okay, these are what this is what this gets you, and this is what you would pair this activ this boot with in terms of activity? Like, where do you even start the conversation, man?

SPEAKER_00 16:09

Well, I mean, the first place I want to start is letting everybody know I am not a shoe expert or a boot expert, right? This is just uh information that I can pass along with you know um obviously university experience and then just a pile of miles of experience in my in myself and what I've done, you know, with the hiking and hunting and everything else. So by no means am I am I the the foremost authority on boots, but I will tell you that that conversation really has to start with what are you going to be doing with them? Like what is the demand going to be placed upon that demo that boot based on your activity? And that's where you start. You know, I mean, I think that if you're if you're looking at uh what most guys were were raised to believe is that you need a big, sturdy, heavy boot for hunting. I can tell you that what I do on on the Oregon coast, that's not necessarily the best thing.

SPEAKER_02 17:04

Where does that where does that come from though? Like where did that where did that thing come from? Because that's a that's a thing. It's passed down from generation to generation.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

I mean, we we haven't had hunting specific boots up until, you know, I I would say a benefit of being raised in the Northwest is that one of the original what you would classify as quote unquote hunting specific boot companies is from here with Danner. Yeah, you know, and Danner kind of started some of the original, like this is the hunting specific boot, and they took it off of a platform that they were using with other things that they were building, whether it was corkies for logging and other styles of outdoor boots, like those were the original hunting boots. You know, I mean I remember my dad, you know, greasing up his leather boots that he, as a forester, he wore out in the woods, but then come the fall, that's what he hunted in. You know, he was chasing elk with a rifle or chasing black tail beer with a rifle, wearing those same boots that he literally wore to work. And, you know, as a as a forester, he's involved in tree planting operations, tree falling operations, fertilization operations, I mean, all that stuff that would put him out in the woods all the time. So it's evolved, I think, from that. And now we're to the point where we have literally within brands that are hiking boots, you have hunting specific boots within those brands. I mean, hell, you look at even a company like Under Armour has what they cla classify as a hunting-specific boot in the Cam Haynes line, you know, and I think that is there's been this emphasis on the hunting world that's kind of allowed for a crossover in that space. And that's not to say that those are the best boots if it's a hunting-specific boot, like if it's a you know, Kenetrek or you know, a company like Crispy or any of the other, you know, like Loa, like you mentioned before, like they've got hiking boots and then they've got hunting boots. Like there's there's this crossover in there, and I think that that that was just it kind of ingrained in us from the start of you know, this is what a boot, a hunting boot should be, and I think we're starting to see now that that's not necessarily the case. You know, I mean you take the Cam Hanes boot as an example, and it's a double BOA system on a on a high ankle support, but a very, very not supportive boot in the sense that it's not real rigid, and it's super comfortable, very cushiony bottoms, right? It's got a flex rating of probably two on any scale you look at. Um super comfortable to wear. You know, are you gonna want to wear it if you're chasing doll sheep in you know the the Wrangle St. Elias Mountains of Alaska and it's super rocky? Maybe, but that's a preference thing, right? Uh most guys would say no, you're definitely not gonna summit Everest in it. I could tell you that much. Um, but it's it's uh it's it's an example that there is no real specific thing as a hunting boot. It's really the boot that fits you the best for the conditions that you're gonna be hunting in or hiking in or whatever. And I think multiple pairs of boots are needed to fit those needs. I mean, I I have probably too many pairs of boots, I'm not gonna lie. Um, but you know, I have a boot for most specific conditions. I have an insulated pair that I wear when it's late season art, you know, archery meal deer and I'm hunting in the snow. You know, I've got a September pair that's quite a bit lighter. Um, you know, the one consistency thing that I have across all of them is I like Cortex. You know, whether it fails or not, like I like to have the feeling that my feet are gonna stay dry even if they do sweat and get wet from the inside out. At least if I'm walking across the creek, the last thing I wanted to have is a wet boot for the rest of the day or potentially the rest of the duration of the trip. Because that could be it could be pretty bad. But you know, like on the death hike we had our second night was you know, in either the single digits or low single digits, um are everybody's boots froze, you know, whether they were dry or not, they they were hard as a rock the next day. So, you know, if it's dry or if it's wet on the inside, that's even worse. Um so situations like that, you know, and and I think ultimately it's just a matter of what are the demands that you're placing upon your boot, and that's probably your starting point. Look at what style of hunting you're gonna be doing, the terrain that you're gonna be in, you know, what's the potential for you know 15 mile days versus you know three mile days or one and a half mile days, and how much time are you spending in the truck, because that'll have a lot to do with the type of boot you want to be wearing driving around in a rig, um, versus you know, if you're gonna be potentially backpack hunting for 15 miles in a day, um, that'll also change what it is that you're wearing. And I don't think boots need to be boots if you if you're good with a shoe and maybe a trailgator, because they're And very comfortable, then that that essentially is a light boot. You know, the boot doesn't have to go over your ankle if you don't want it to. But it's nice to keep the debris, the debris and stuff like that out of your boot. So a trail trailgator might be a nice thing to wear.

SPEAKER_02 22:15

So the the the takeaway for me is do your absolute best to match uh your activ the footwear with your activity. If you are say hiking long distances, take this is why PC tiers use trailrunners. They're on a trail, they're not going off trail. For the most part, they're not side hilling unless it's on a trail. They're walking, they're on their feet all day. So in that case, it would make the most sense to wear a shoe that is comfortable for all day wearing.

SPEAKER_00 22:51

But if you try to do it, you see hiking a PCT and be under prong horns.

SPEAKER_02 22:54

Right, not not too many. Yeah, exactly. Hiking in like a ski boot, right? Right. So how do you know? Uh let me ask you this. How do you know, Corey Ford, how when you need additional support?

SPEAKER_00 23:15

Um you're probably not necessarily going to know that until it's needed. You know, so that's why at a bare minimum and that's it's a it's a strange thing to say, but you know, I'll I'll give an example. So you're hunting, you know, I'm hunting on the Oregon coast, right? I locate a bull is in the bottom of the canyon. I drop into that canyon going downhill. I kind of maybe wish I had a little bit more supportive boot than what I'm wearing at the top when I'm you know cruising hiking trails and logging roads and whatnot, but I won't know until I get to the bottom if I'm really gonna want more support, which is gonna be when I kill that bull. But when I might have wanted the different pair of boots.

SPEAKER_02 23:54

But what what is the thing that like say you're you you do it, you like jump down in the the that canyon and you're like, oh my gosh, wrong choice. Like, what is the condition in which you're like, you know what would be right right now is this boot with better support. Like, is it steep side hill? Is it debris? Is it rocky terrain? Like, do you have an idea of like when it is you're like, oh yeah, that would make a lot more sense right now?

SPEAKER_00 24:22

Um, yeah, I mean, there's some there's times where I've been in super rocky terrain and I wore too stiff of a boot. Oh, really? And I was I I wish I had a different boot. Yeah, because you gotta remember too, like uh and this kind of goes to your to the Facebook conversation that was going on the other day. Uh a stiff shank boot. So if you've got a full shank and a very rigid boot, when you step on something that's uneven, that entire footbed moves.

SPEAKER_02 24:46

Okay, hold on.

SPEAKER_00 24:47

So full shank, yep.

SPEAKER_02 24:48

Can we define shanks?

SPEAKER_00 24:50

Full shank, yeah, heel to all the way to the toes. And that's a rigid. A lot of a lot of boots, correct. Yeah. So it is a rigid piece underneath the, you know, that that is uh on top of the footbed of the shoe itself, underneath of the, you know, it's basically covers the sole, it's under the um the insole that you have, and it gives the boot its rigidity. So that's the thing that will create, you know, like say a level five stiffness boot on a one to five scale. Um a three-quarter shank boot is going to be more of like your your four to five or three and a half to five boot, depending on the stiffness of that shank, and then you know, down the line until you get to a tennis shoe, which is essentially a one.

SPEAKER_03 25:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

Um the lower the number, the more flat. Correct. Yes, correct. So on an uneven surface, if you step on something that and you're in a full shank boot, that entire boot has to rotate to compensate. Now, as you move up the what they call essentially like the cue line, because you have a cue angle that is your ankle your hip to your knee to your ankle. You can look this up online if you want, and it'll talk about that. As you move up the pathway of the three joints that absorb that motion, it first starts at the ankle. So if you're on an uneven surface and you turn or you step on it, it the first thing that moves is your ankle. And then the thing that has to compensate for that ankle motion is your knee, and then the last thing that has to compensate for it is your hip. And if all that's not in alignment, you lose your balance and you fall over, right? So you want to make sure that if you're in a very stiff, rocky terrain situation, that you're either very mindful of that with every single step, which can kind of suck because you're going to watch every step, or you're wearing a boot that is maybe a little softer and they've has the ability to absorb some of those unevennesses that are going to be on the ground in front of you. Now, likewise, if you're going down a super steep, very loose, dirted hill or you're trying to climb out of one, you know, think of somebody climbing in the snow. They might more prefer, especially if you're having to walk up on your toes, a much stiffer shank because it's going to support the ankle or the foot in a much better manner than a super soft boot would, which would just fold under that the stress that you're putting on it. So pairing it to the different conditions, and that's why I think a lot of guys really look for that. If they're looking for one booth, they try to find something that's in a sweet spot that kind of provides a little bit of both. It doesn't excel one way or the other, but it's comfortable but still provides enough support. And I think that the search for most guys is still out there to find that perfect boot. You know, I've had a lot of guys rave about the crispy Laponias as being that boot. I've had in the past, man, I mean, the Solomon Quest 4Ds were like it for a lot of guys, but they just didn't hold up over, you know, even much of a season from a hunting perspective because they weren't designed to be a hunting boot, but as far as like you know, out-of-the-box fit feel, those boots were really hard to beat. The features that they provided, three-quarter shank, like, but super comfortable, it kind of fit everybody's bill, and then you would wear them for you know one hunting season, which would all you for most guys is usually you know, maybe 20 total days in the field and they were destroyed.

SPEAKER_02 27:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

Or they were leaking or whatever, you know. So um, yeah, I think it it all kind of goes back into that what where is that the demand that you're placing onto it, you know, to kind of re-retch on your question.

SPEAKER_02 28:11

So you know what's confusing about that whole thing is when you're walking when you're talking about the the going over rocks, and I remember this from our original discussion. In my head, what makes the most sense is if I'm on rocks, I need something that's very stable because I'm unstable. And I feel like but if I look at it like, hey, if I'm going up the side of a like a mountaineering boot, like take a mountain, so these are two examples. The one with the rocks in my head, I would need something stiffer. But also the one with the snow and the loose debris, that makes sense to be more to be stiff. And if I'm climbing a mountain and I'm going up, I don't want my foot to flex too much because I'm going straight up and I need to push my crampons in and I need to kind of build myself upstairs. What I find fascinating is that that first one is so confusing to me because I'm like, So you're telling me I need a looser, more pliable boot if I'm going over rocky terrain? That doesn't compute. But then when you talk about how the body then compensates for what's about to happen to you, like it has to compensate somehow. And it's gonna shoot it all the way up into your hips and then you're gonna fall over. But let's say you have like uh a ski boot on and you're going over rocky terrain and you take a guy on tennis shoes, you'll see a massive difference in how what they're able to do.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

Is that kind of well, 100%? Yeah, yeah, but then you go throw kick your way up the side of Mount St. Helens in a pair of ski boots versus a guy in a pair of tennis shoes, and I can I guarantee I can tell you which one's gonna excel better in that in that instance, right?

SPEAKER_05 29:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

Um so it it it is it does kind of defy some logic of what you think about in the past, and that you know, oh, you're gonna be on a rocket train, you need a real nice, stiff, supportive, rigid boot. Well, yeah, until you step on something, and next thing you know, you're you know, you're straining your MCL because you stepped on it on the outside of your foot and it turned your ankle in, where you actually have less range of motion in an inversion movement, which is basically turning your foot inward. Um, some people might try for whatever reason to say that that's it's pronated, but it's not because pronation and supination is with your hands, inversion and eversion is with your feet. So there is a difference there. Um in an inversion scenario, your most guys have less range of motion there than they do in an eversion situation. So that's where you really start to notice things. You step on something that's uneven on the outside of your foot and it turns your knee and everything in. And you definitely notice that because you don't have a lot of room for range of motion to happen. So it's definitely noticeable more noticeable. Um, and that that doesn't happen if you're wearing a tennis shoe that will, or you know, a soft hiker or uh a trail runner or something that will flex around that and it just it absorbs some of that initial motion that's going to be created down the line, and it all has to do with how much range is moved in and through all three of those joints to where you're either stable or unstable. If the if the shoe absorbs you know five degrees of angle and your ankle absorbs another, you know, two degrees, your knee your knee absorbs two degrees and your hip absorbs two degrees for a 10 degree change in angle, you might be perfectly fine. But if your shoe absorbs zero and then you disperse the other 10% or 10 degrees of angle across the three joints, then you're probably unstable, right? So it really comes down to you know what again, conditions, right? Yeah, um, and and really understanding how all that works and not just kind of going with the old adage of you know, uh you don't need a mountaineering boot if you're gonna be hiking on trails, it's not gonna help. And there's a reason, and they and it's tried over time, as you know, trail runners are by and far the most widely used shoe on the PCT and any other long distance trail or any trail for that matter. Um, you don't see a lot of people out there running around in a in a pair of you know was sportiva um mountaineering boots. You just don't for a reason.

SPEAKER_02 32:26

But yeah, so when I got done with the PCT, I remember I was like, dude, I'm never wearing a boot ever again. But then I realized I'm like, well, that's a silly thing to say because try walking through a try going really okay, two things. Try going through like a clear cut in running shoes and you'll hate your life. Or go like on a steep side hill with loose dirt when you're hunting off trail. I'm now off trail. If I'm on trail, 100% give me a running shoe all day long.

SPEAKER_03 32:59

Right.

SPEAKER_02 33:00

But if I'm off trail, dude, I have to think about it differently. Now, if I'm off trail in the desert and for some reason I'm not really going uphills and downhills and side hills, then sure, I'll wear a trail runner. That sounds great. But like if you're in the Pacific Northwest on the west side and you're like, okay, I need to go side hill now, dude. Your foot's gonna slide out the side of that freaking trail runner so damn fast. And now you're really talking about rolling ankles. So I had like, I feel like I've had multiple iterations of like epiphanies where I went from a boot to like a running shoe, and I was like, I'm never going back to a boot. And then I went to like a non-gore-tex running shoe for the PCT, and it's like I'm never going non-gore-text, or I'm never going Gore-Tex or boot ever again. And then I've kind of come full circle to your point at the beginning where your shoe closet is very large because you have realized that you need multiple boots for multiple scenarios because you are an avid outdoorsment that does a lot of different things. Therefore, you need a pair of shoes that goes with those a lot of different things. Like in your most prepared for those conditions. Like that's what it really comes down to.

SPEAKER_00 34:09

I mean, it's it's it's a quiver, like anything else, right? I mean, you what do you what do you got in your quiver if you're a fisherman? Yeah, you know, I can tell you what I have in my quiver. I have three different poles that I use for three different scenarios, right? If I'm if I'm fishing socks eye on the Kenai River, I use pole A. If I'm fishing steelhead in the Pacific Northwest, I'm using pole B. If I'm fishing, you know, trout in the lake, I'm using pole C. It's just the same thing with guns. I mean, you have you see that those questions come up so often on Facebook. Like, you know, what's the one caliber that you could use for all game, you know, any day of the week, any year, whatever. Like, it doesn't exist. You can make some arguments about certain things, but the reality of it is is even if you say, I'm gonna use a 300 wind mag or a 7mm magnum, like within that gun, you're still gonna have different bullet scenarios for the game that you're hunting. You know, if I shoot, and I I did this growing up all the time, like I hunted with a 7mm mag that was given to me as a gift. I of the 27 black-tailed deer I shot, the majority of them, I think 24 or 25 of them were shot with that gun. I I was shooting 180 grain bullets when I was younger, and I was oh just, you know, it's all about shot placement. Yeah, but if if the bullet's too big for the animal, it just still destroys them, right? So then I was trying to find, I think I was able to find 140 grain bullets that I would then use for gear. But then what am I shooting for elk? I'm back to the 180s, right? So there you got your two scenarios, and I think that at least in a pair in a boot situation or in a hiking and or hunting, even just within hunting and within hiking, you probably need to have at least two, maybe three different things in your quiver. And I know that some people are gonna say, Well, I mean, I can't afford all that, but and if you're not using the same pair all the time, those three two or three pairs are gonna last you two to three times as long. It's the same money over time, you know. So you can't look at it from the perspective that, like, oh, I can't afford the three pairs. Well, buy one pair for the activity that you're doing, and when the next activity comes up, buy the other pair. You know, shop the RAI Garage sales. I mean, I bought four pairs of Solomon Quest 4Ds at the RAI Garage Sale for $41.50 like seven years ago, and they became throwaways almost. I was like, oh yeah, right, we'll ruin another pair like all right, pitch them in the garbage, grab the next one in the lineup. You know, I mean, they were like brand new when I bought them, they looked like they'd been worn around the parking lot.

SPEAKER_04 36:39

Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_00 36:39

So there are other ways to get boots out there, and yeah, and then find the idiots like me that buy too many pairs of boots and then they turn around and sell them, and you know, you probably get us a better discount than you would if you bought them, you know, somewhere online. And so, you know, hunt Craigslist or offer up because guys are getting rid of that crap all the time, too.

SPEAKER_02 36:56

So yeah, because a pair of boots might cause a blister and they're like, I'm not gonna wear these anymore, and they have like 10 miles on them, and you're like, sweet, I'll take them.

SPEAKER_00 37:04

Right. Yeah, but some of that comes down to I mean, guys, guys freak out about that stuff too all the time. And and I was uh thinking about this earlier when you were talking about you know your PCT and the boots, and then I had this thought about you know when you when you were training for the PCT, you didn't train for it by lifting weights. No, and the same thing should be said about training with a pair of boots, you know, and getting ready for something is that do it in the same with the same mentality that you would take in training for the activity. You gotta do that same thing with your with your feet, with your shoes, and everything, so that when you're placed into that situation, you're prepared for it. You know, it's not it's not something where you just walk into it and go, Oh, I just bought these boots. I mean, look, we've we all have those friends or know those guys that have done that, like, oh, I'll take it right out of the box, you know, and then I go, I'll go hike with them. I s I saw it on the death hike a a couple of years ago, you know. I mean, it it happened.

SPEAKER_04 38:05

Boots to box to trail.

SPEAKER_00 38:08

Box to trail, man. Oh, these things are right out of the box, they're good to go. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 38:13

There are very few boots and boo shoes that you can do that with.

SPEAKER_00 38:18

Very few. Yep. And and they and they really need to take the time to get worked in and and molded to the foot itself. And and I think custom orthotics for a lot of guys can be extremely, extremely beneficial if you've got a weird-shaped foot. I've got a high arch.

SPEAKER_05 38:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:34

Um, you know. Yeah, dude, what are your thoughts on that? Long-legged high arch on orthotics?

SPEAKER_02 38:39

Here's before you say what you're gonna say, the reason why I ask is because we all get bum scoop from someone, right? And I was told by a gentleman that you should never replace the tolls, uh the the inserts in your shoes because they're not because the the manufacturer put those in there and they're made for the shoe. If you replace them, you're gonna uh you're gonna cause blisters and screw your feet up and it's not gonna be fit and you're gonna ruin everything. So I've always avoided.

SPEAKER_01 39:14

So that means you never replace the tires on your truck with an aftermarket tire?

SPEAKER_02 39:18

That's what I'm talking about. Like one scoop product in my head, I was like, that doesn't really make any sense, or else there wouldn't be these products out there. You tell me all these products and people that swear by them are wrong. But I was like, I guess in a way you could be correct because you this manufacturer's made this install for this boot to size.

SPEAKER_00 39:38

But who have they made it for? Yeah, they made it for everybody. That's the question. Who have they made it for, right? They made it for the masters, they made it for the most general of everybody.

SPEAKER_02 39:48

My other thought was like, you're thinking way too highly of these brands that they are so thoughtful in the insert making.

SPEAKER_00 39:58

It's a it's amazing when you see when you see when you see a printout or a readout on a computer screen of somebody that steps across the force platform and it shows literally every piece of the foot that touched the platform in a in the standard gate, what people's foots will do and how much of a variance there is, and to see it over age ranges and to see it in different foot sizes and to see it like literally right in front of your eyes present itself that not every foot is even remotely close to the same.

SPEAKER_05 40:28

Right.

SPEAKER_00 40:29

Once you understand that, then you see the value in maybe spending the money in a custom orthotic, especially if you don't have just a very normal foot. If you've got a pretty normal foot, you could probably get away with an insole that's very average average, like in the shoe, yeah. But all you really have to do to determine whether or not those things are good is take one out and look at it and go, oh yeah, this I mean I NASA probably came up with this thing, right? I mean, they they are so they are so basic when you when you look at a at a shoe next to a really good custom orthotic. Um you you can tell that there is a difference, especially with the ability to to mold that to fit your foot. Like I think that that's uh it's a highly uh encouraged thing to do in a in a performance piece of footwear, like a boot that you're gonna potentially spend hundreds and hundreds of miles in. Um you know, so I I I don't I wouldn't poo-poo it by any by any means. Um I I I think that people should you know investigate and determine whether or not it's good for them. And I'm not talking about going and buying the super feed at you know, based on color at Oreis, yeah, and trimming them to fit down. Like I'm talking about getting like a legitimate custom fit orthodox to really truly match your feet. And and they're the ones that'll tell you like they'll they'll make you can make a world of difference in how a boot fits and feels based on that, you know.

SPEAKER_02 42:00

So because there's two there's two parts, right? Like I I feel like we talked about the shank, we talked about the the way the boot works and everything, and now we're talking about insoles, and in my head I'm like, oh dude, people need to know that there's multiple, like you choose the boot based on like these uh or shoe based on these specs. Let's say boot because they're more uh running to running shoe. But like let's say uh a a boot, a hunting boot that's a little more technical. I feel like there's a lot that goes into that tank and the materials, you're getting the gore-text, you're getting these your features, maybe is the word that we should talk about and we should use. And then you have the insole, which is gonna make your life possibly hell or make you feel really good. And we all welcome two feet, right?

SPEAKER_00 42:50

Yeah, yeah, a majority of us do. Um so I I think that you know, if you're looking at that, um and you're looking at creating a a little bit of a more comfortable environment in a s in a stiffer boot, which those insoles that they provide are not, they don't provide any cushion. And the type of materials that are used to create yeah, none. So the type of material they use to create the footbed is gonna ultimately determine the comfortability of the of the boot or the shoe. If it's a a high EVA foam, you know, which is uh basically a low density foam, something that's very squishy, like your foot can mold that, but you're talking like a pair of running shoes. Over time, your foot's gonna mold into that shoe, and that's why like people will constantly go back to a pair of year old worn shoes from a comfort perspective because that footboy, that footbed has now molded into what your foot is like. A lot of these hunting boots, that footbed will never ever mold to fit your foot. But the footbed or but the the insole itself can, especially if you use something that has the ability to mold. And most of the hunting boots aren't using EVA foam, they are using. Using you know a high density polymer of some sorts that's gonna that is by far uh more superior from a durability perspective, but man, it is not cushiony. What what's that?

SPEAKER_02 44:11

It's not it doesn't have why like why would they do that? Like why would they spend why would they sell you a four hundred dollar pair of boots with a crappy insole that's not gonna like do they okay, is there a secret is there a secret that like they're like, yeah, we know that you're gonna buy this boot, but you're gonna get a custom insole because you're spending four hundred dollars on this boot?

SPEAKER_00 44:32

Is there like a they probably think that if you're serious about it, that you will you know? Uh I just I it seems to me that if you granted, if you do look at some of the higher end boots, you will find that they do provide a better insole.

SPEAKER_05 44:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 44:53

Um, you know, I almost think that some of these high-end boots, if you're gonna spend 400 bucks on a really, really good boot, I think that you they should probably provide something that is somewhat customizable. And I would love to see if you know somebody that had, you know, the that sold their their boot with the ability to wedge out your arch or to add cushion to your heel or to change the shape of the ball of the foot, you know, something of that nature where you could actually shim it to make it fit the boot the the person itself. And in that case, you would you know just provide those with the with the actual boot and then people could kind of work on it themselves. Um otherwise you're gonna spend the money to go get you know uh a really high-end um you know custom orthotics, and whether you're going to the good feet store or um oh what's the sh the sheep, what the heck is the sheep one?

SPEAKER_04 45:52

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 45:53

Um anyway, some of the names are escaping me right now, but that's that's besides the point. So um, you know, it's just a matter of I guess finding the value in it, and I and you won't ever know until you try it. You really won't.

SPEAKER_02 46:08

The value is when you're like 10 miles deep on a backpacking trip and you're like, I hate my feet.

SPEAKER_00 46:15

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I I have prayed. I have prayed for more for more cushion in my boots when I'm literally on my third trip with probably 90 pounds-ish, close to 100 pounds on my back for five miles each each direction. You know, I mean, uh, my buddy and I killed bulls in Washington. We were a little over five miles. That was it was actually his was about five and a half, mine was closer to six uh back-to-back days. So going, we hauled a loadout with his without packboards, and this is back before my exodase. Went back in the next day to get the rest of his elk, and I killed a bull, and then so now we've got what you know, another trip with his plus back in, and then two more trips with mine, which ended up turning into three trips because we tried to go heavy and it didn't work, so then we dropped weight and came out and went back in. And you do the math on how many trips it takes you to get in and out on that. I mean, five trips, it's you know, roughly five and a half to six miles each direction. I mean, that's a lot of miles. And I was just praying that I had something with more with more cushion. My feet were just beat flat, and that's that's not a good feeling. And I and I think you know, probably the most comfortable pair of boots that I've worn in in the recent past, and I wore them on last year's hundred mile death hike, was the um the Hokus.

unknown 47:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:44

And if you look at a Hoka boot, super heavy, heavy EVA foam base, like it's real thick, super thick, very comfortable. Um, you know, a different concept than what a lot of boot manufacturers are using right now.

SPEAKER_05 47:58

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 47:59

Um, but god, they were so comfortable where, you know, I only had 15 pounds roughly in my backpack for that distance, you know, because we we just packed as light as we could, but man, it was it was a dream to be able to just every step all the way through be nice and cushiony. So well, dude, I these are a funny thing, man. I mean, they are they are.

SPEAKER_02 48:19

I I so I wore hokas all the way up to PCT, and I I started out the trail in these like La Sportiva Raptors, I'll never forget them. And I I hurt my dude, I felt like my foot was breaking. Like it was I was down to like a mile an hour in these things on the second day. First day was great, second day woke up with blisters. Um and then I like I don't know, man. I started changing my gait, I think. And I I mean these were trail running shoes, man, and they felt great. Like they felt super comfortable. Day three, I like I I day two I hiked four miles in croc because my feet hurt so bad. And then day three, I got to like Mount Laguna, swapped them out for these other shoes. And then I had Jeff send me my hokas that I had on like on the back burner, which I wanted to start the trail out with, but I don't know why I didn't. And she sent them to me, and those things healed my foot. I'm not saying that my my feet were feeling great, but when I put them on and I was going over rocky terrain and over mile and mile, mile after mile after mile over the course of a couple hundred miles because you have to keep moving those HOCAs with that thick that thick base. Do they feel great? Now I have tried wearing HOCA boots off trail. It didn't really work out that well because you're still high up. So it was and I specifically side hilling, you know, going across like loose terrain, just Pacific Northwest fern ridden side hills. Like your foot wants to roll, but I'm like, dude, if these are these would be really great boots to wear if you could almost guarantee that nothing's gonna be super steep side hill. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 50:11

Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think the shape of the Hoka footbed um and the sole doesn't allow for that because it's not it's not a flat and then hard angle sides. It's it's definitely something where you know you're the uneven terrain or or side hilling is going to be a challenge because it doesn't have it doesn't have that style of grip. It is definitely designed for trail and not so much off trail, yeah, for sure. So and you know, I mean granted the speed goats that I wore and you and I the first trip I wore them on, the first like official hike that I really did with them was the trip that you and I did on the Lewitt trail around St. Helens, and we encountered a ton of volcanic rock. And you know, after the 32 miles or whatever it was on that trip, I I was a little concerned about their durability. Yep, yeah, but you know, I wasn't gonna swap out prior to the 100-mile death hike, so I rolled with them and they were they because they stayed super comfortable. But I will tell you that after I got back from the death hike, those things went right back to REI because they were destroyed. I mean 130 miles and and they were done. Yeah, you know, it just they they didn't have they didn't have the durability to hold up for that. But if I was just you know looking for a good trail hiker or something, and they're and they make a better boot that I probably should have gotten the the the 1-1s or whatever they are, the the Hoka Ona 1-1, I think is a is more of a leather boot that provides a bit more durable materials for the outside.

SPEAKER_02 51:41

I probably should have gone with that one, but yeah, I I swapped, I remember my Hokas and I had the speed goats. Dude, they lasted like 300 miles tops like they were destroyed very quickly, but at the same time, they felt really good. So it comes down to what do you want? Like what do you what do you want? What do you expect? Like if you're just hiking trails, man, like expect to you're probably gonna swap your shoes out a lot, man. Like your boots are your shoes are gonna get beat up. I would imagine that like mountaineering boots should hold up over time a lot better because the materials are higher end, but you're not gonna be hiking on trails with those things. You're probably not putting a ton of quote unquote miles on them.

SPEAKER_00 52:30

Right. Some guys do, and I wonder why. Um I I I do. I mean, I wonder why. Because like you've mentioned before, they literally, if you're walking in a real stiff shank boot, you literally look like you're walking in ski boots.

SPEAKER_02 52:44

Ski boots, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:45

Yeah, you know. Um, I think that some people like it because they feel like their foot is much more supported. Uh a hard a hard boot doesn't allow your foot to um flex in kind of a natural manner. You know, we are we are evolved or devolved, however you want to look at it, away from being barefoot, right? I mean, we just you take most guys now, you take the biggest, toughest guy that wears shoes all the time and put them out and walk them across the driveway with a few pebbles on their on there, and you're gonna see them turn into a real wimp pretty fast if it's because his feet are so soft, you know. And that's just the nature of how we are. So if you're if you're a if you don't like that feel of the rocks and stuff on your feet when you're walking barefoot, you're probably gonna want a soft boot. And when you when you're walking in something that's really, really rigid, your foot doesn't have the the shoe doesn't help absorb some of that motion that your foot would go through, especially if you have you know like a high arch. A flat-footed person might have a different opinion or a at least a different experience in certain shoes or boots, but a high arched person is definitely over time you're gonna feel that that fascia, the plantar fascia on the bottom of the foot just start to get beat down and flatten out. That doesn't mean you're gonna get plantar fasciitis, but that fascia on the bottom of the foot definitely continues to get beat down to the to the point where you actually lose some of your arch over time until it has the ability to repair. But uh a hard boot is not supporting that arch and that fascia is constantly being beat down. So if you really want to, you know, uh if you're looking at a custom orthotic, you want to pay special attention to something like that, if especially if it's going into and you could in theory make a fairly rigid boot a bit more comfortable by adding in the foam in the footbed itself and the um in the orthotic, you know. So I don't know, boots are a funny thing, man. They are they really are, and people get hung up on them, and you hear you hear the questions in the Facebook groups all the time. You know, the what's the best bino, what's the best boot, what's the best backpack, what's the best rifle, what's the best bow, what's the best arrow, broadhead, blah blah blah. Boots constantly come up in that conversation, and I don't know why people ask it. Because it's not it's not my place to give you an opinion on what boot you should get. I can tell you only what works for me. I can't even I couldn't tell you how your foot feels in a boot.

SPEAKER_05 55:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:15

So what what should I be telling you, you know, what boot to get? Now, I mean, I I can steer you in a direction based on personal experience that I have, but if your foot's nothing like mine, then what the hell good is that gonna do you? Well, that's the thing.

SPEAKER_02 55:27

Like it's like a thumb print, man. It's like I don't know. I I get so nervous when people ask me about like footwear, because I'm like, dude, footwear could ruin your life. Like, yeah. It could ruin your life or it could make your life really, really awesome. And uh the Yeah, I mean, uh like maybe there there's probably no takeaway other than the fact that like maybe you should I don't know. If someone stands in front of me and is like, hey Emery, what uh what boot should I get or what shoe should I get for for this? I'd be like, first of all, what are you doing? But second of all, you should probably go educate yourself on your own feet. Like go go have someone analyze your feet so that you at least have a dog in the fight. So when you go to REI and the guy that's been like working at Safeway and then transition to REI like gives you advice, you know what he's talking about. Yeah. He or she's talking about. Like the first question, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:26

The first question he should ask you is exactly what you're saying. Tell me about your feet. Not it shouldn't even be what are you gonna be using the boot for. The first question should be, tell me about your feet. Yeah, if you can't describe your own feet, then you need to like go do homework and figure out what it is about your feet that you're looking for. Okay, you know, so like I said, I've got I'm like a uh a pretty solid 12 in eight out of 10 pairs of boots that are or shoes that I buy. I have a high arch, I have a fairly wide footbed requirement, not to the point where I need to be in like a double E width boot or shoe, but you know, I in in that area from the inside of my big toe to the outside of my pinky toe, it's fairly wide. So I have a specific need for my foot, and I understand that for me, comfort is ultimately going to win over support because I feel like the support should, in theory, come from my training. And so I want something that's comfortable after 30 miles, not where I'm like, oh god, my foot freaking hurts, but damn, it feels supported. You know, I don't want that. I want the opposite. So I need to be able to explain that to a guy who's trying to fit me for boots. And then the second question is, what are you gonna be doing with it? Yeah, and you might find that you're gonna be walking out under two pairs of boots because you can't find the one that fits the bill. Yeah, you know. Um that and that's just reality, and it is very, very individualized. You know, are you 300 pounds or are you 140 pounds? That has a lot to do with it too.

SPEAKER_02 57:57

Holy moly. You know, yeah, man, there's like so much to it. Like, and the that's that's what's like so mind-bogging about. I remember our conversation like a year ago, or whatever it was, and I was like, oh my gosh, like this is a pile of spaghetti that you gotta like pull out one noodle at a time and analyze it and figure out what where the heck it's supposed to go. Like and if you are a multi-sport, multi-activity outdoors woman or outdoorsman, you better have a closet floor shoes, man. Like you better have a closet floor shoes because there's a lot. I mean, if you're a roadrunner, there's road running shoes and there's a reason for it. And if you're in the snow, there's there's stuff like that. And if you're on a trail, there's stuff like that. It's just and it can make your life hell. We're talking not about REI, places like REI to have stupid little rocks. Like fake rocks. Yeah, like put this boat. Like, you can see how it feels on these rocks. Okay, cool story, bro. Like, why don't you tell them to walk around the block for like 20 minutes and tell me how it thinks how it felt how it feels? Like you should go on a walk for 20 minutes, that'll give you about a mile, and then tell me how it feels. Like, why why don't we place it?

SPEAKER_00 59:11

Sure, yeah. And granted, in the past was already done by them. It is, but but at least you get to trial and error it, right? Yeah, so it and it it was it was abused in the past, I'll give it that. I mean, a lot of people used to do that, like, oh, I'm calling, you know, I need a boom for the hiking trip this weekend, and they would literally buy and boom for the hiking trip and then take it back. Um, I don't think that those types of people are the ones that are you know using these purchases as legitimate research to try to find a really good pair of boots. You know, I think that that really can only be done by investing in the time and the money and doing it and getting it and and just figuring out what you like. And I remember after this year's death hike, um, we got done. This is you know, fresh in my memory. It's three weeks ago. We got done, and and everybody's got their gear sprawled out, and and we're back at this cabin in Yellow Pine, Idaho, like town of like four. And uh and this all this stuff spread out, and everybody's talking about what they liked and disliked in on the trip, and guys are talking about their experiences with new boots. I remember Steve wore some Anu's, and and um Mark had some hand wags, and uh I was talking with Anthony O'Birdie and he was asking about them, and he was just like, Yeah, I'm gonna probably end up picking up a pair of those because they sound like they would be really good. And I will tell you, uh Anthony and I were sitting there talking about how many pairs of boots we own, and we just laughed, you know, and it's like, but the reality of it is is until you find the pair, once you do, you should probably buy two or three pairs of them to laugh you because you don't want the manufacturer to stop making that line. Yeah, man, you it's just it is literally a trial and error process, just like any other, you know, whether it's a medical scenario or a weight loss scenario or a foods you like scenario, it's all trial and error until you really find the thing that you like. Yeah, and that's you that's the same approach you have to take with the boots. Invest in it because it is something that it could legitimately make or break a trip. You know what I mean? Like you can be okay on a trip. Like if you're on a backcountry uh archery hunt and you're not in love with your bow, it's not gonna ruin your trip.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:20

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:21

But I guarantee your boots, your boots will ruin your trip. Yeah, you know, it's not much different than a sleeping bag. A bad sleeping bag could ruin a trip on us in certain conditions. Yeah, a bad, you know, a bad backpack will absolutely ruin your trip if you know under certain cons uh conditions. But more than anything, the one thing that touches the ground and gets used the most is your boots.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:43

Well, and every year, dude, you get these like pictures on social media of like raw ass ankles, and you're like, oh my gosh, dude, what are you doing? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:55

Right. Well, let me ask you this. So you you hiked the PCT, what what shorts did you wear most of the time?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:02

Shorts?

unknown 1:02:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:04

Yeah, I just wore shorts the rest the most the majority of the time, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:09

What pair did you wear?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:10

Just like a pair of like new shorts. Yeah, just a pair of new balance balance running shorts.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:15

So if you would have worn a pair of Lululemon running shorts, like the most expensive running shorts you can buy, would that have made your trip better or worse?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:25

Do I have will they make me move faster? No, they would have been not it would have been like a zero sum. No change. Change, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:32

Yeah. Now if you had to have worn those crocs for 2,000 miles, does that make your trip better or worse? If you're wearing aqua socks, is that gonna make your trip better or worse? You know, if you're wearing any, I mean if you're if you're like, oh and I'll give you a quick story on this because I could I know what makes the trip better or worse. My buddy Jason, who I hunt in Washington with, he and I were going in on a scouting trip one time, early season, and we got we we figured we were gonna get in the snow, but we weren't 100% positive. Well, sure shit we did, right? And we're we're going in 15 miles to set up trail cameras because we wanted to go in the long way. There's a lot shorter way of getting in there, but we wanted to go the long way. Halfway through this, we get the snow. Now, on the drive down, what Jason realizes is he forgot his boots. So, what did we do? We pulled into Walmart, and he literally bought what was their most expensive boot for I think $39.99 at the time. Okay, this is this is 12 years ago.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:34

Epic hunting scouting trip.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:38

Their leather-ish stuff, yeah, and and we're gonna be going in, and we're just like, oh, it's just gonna be a couple days, it shouldn't be all that bad. Um, it was gonna end up being over the course of like two and a half days. You know, we went on a Friday and we came out on Sunday. It was gonna be 25 miles. I I could not, I don't think I could do it justice trying to describe to you at like the 10-mile point when he stopped and he's like, I cannot go on. My feet are frozen, they are numb. And this is we'd only been in the snow for a couple miles at this point. He was miserable, absolutely miserable. The best pair of boots you could buy at Walmart, and he was hating life. An experienced dude was held for him. Yeah, all because he forgot his boots, and a lot of people have been there, right? But it just goes to show the point that had he had his boots, wouldn't even have been an issue, not one issue, because he invests in his feet. Yeah, but when he was like, Oh, the last thing he wants to do is try to find a sporting good store and go spend another couple hundred bucks on a good boot, rolled into Wally World and picked up the best thing that they had, and it was not even remotely close to being good enough. And we weren't packed heavy. I mean, we were like 35 pounds, 40 pounds max, because you know, we were packing trail cameras and we had feed and stuff like that that we were gonna put out, you know, or attract it, whatever you want to call it. Um, boots will make it make or break your trip. Not nothing else for the for the most part will, unless you're in inclement weather and you can plan for it. But a but a pair of boots or a pair of shoes will absolutely I mean you could probably ask every marathon runner that's ever ran a marathon if a pair if a good pair of shoes or a bad pair of shoes would make or break it. And if they're invested in running a marathon, if they're gonna go run Boston, they're not gonna skip out on a pair of on a pair of cheesy ass running shoes. They're gonna get a really good quality running shoe. And I think that in the hunting industry, people have to, you know, really focus on where they put their money. And boots is one of those places. I mean, you don't need to shoot the the top of the line carbon bow that weighs you know a half an ounce. You know, it doesn't have to be the the best arrow setup, but man, when it comes to your feet and the Things that you're going to be using to get around a a good, really good quality pair of boots is going to make your break that season.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:09

You make a really valid point about boots aren't sexy, man. Like shoes aren't sexy, like the bow and the arrow and the and the rifle and the optics. Like you could I mean let's talk about bows, optics, rifles, even bullets. Like you could skimp on all of those things. And you would still you would it would you'd be like negli negligible impact to your overall success. But if you can take that money and probably buy multiple pairs of the same boot that work and you would have a drastic impact on your ability to keep going, to keep grinding, to be to have a good time, go to sleep, knowing that like your feet worked that day, but they're not freaking piles of mush. Like you would have a drastic it would actually have, to your point, a drastic impact on your overall success. And that applies to not just hunting, that applies to a lot of different things. Like right. Yeah, dude, that's that's a really good way to put it.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:20

Of all the things that you just mentioned, only one of them is gonna keep you out of the woods.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:24

Right. Exactly. Yeah. Only one.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:27

You're not gonna be like, oh man, I don't I'm not taking these bullets in to hunt today. You know, but if your feet are are thrashed, you're not gonna go back in the woods. Yeah, you know, I mean, and and that's the last thing you want if it's whether it's a backpack hunt and you're back in for five to seven days, or you're literally hunting out of the truck, the last thing you want is to be like, oh man, I just I'm gonna take the day off because my feet need a break.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:51

Do you let me ask you know do you when it comes to blisters, do you poo-poo a pair of boots or like discard them if they give you blisters?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:02

No, no, why is it? I feel like I've done something else wrong. Well, because uh first off, there's other things that you can do to address those situations. Now, if you find that it consistently gives you a blister in the same spot, then there needs to be something addressed there. But if you especially you know early on, if you're wearing it, I mean, the way that you lace the boot will have a lot to do with how much movement you have within the boot, like where you get a hot spot, the sock you're wearing will have just as much of an impact on that. Like there's so many other variables that go into it. And coming back to the footbed thing is maybe that generic stock insole is not the best for your foot. But if you had something that was literally molded to your foot, that hotspot would go in an instant. Gotcha. You know, because I think that's how and that that's my take on it.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:54

Yeah, I feel like that's another I wouldn't say misconception, but a conception of like, oh, it gave me blisters, so I I don't want to wear it. I was gonna tell you, like, one of my first trail runner that I ever wore was a Solomon Speed Cross. You familiar? Yeah, I'm sure you are. Have you ever worn them?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:13

Yep. Yeah, I have a couple pair of them right now.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:16

Dude, like they're kind of my favorite pair of hunting running shoes. Because uh Solomon kind of has a and the Gore-Tex version, it's a little stiffer.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:29

And it kind of gives you like a really nice off-trail supportive feel. Like if you're going on loose stuff, it's a good balance. I mean, it just doesn't cover your ankle. Which was right.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:41

Which if depending on again, like they make a speed cross high high now, they do make a speed cross boot. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:49

Yeah, man, like those are kind of like a good, like if you're kind of wanting to do the running shoe lightweight hiker type of thing, kind of it. I'm not saying it's like a stiff tool, but I'm saying it's more rigid than you'd think. And it's it's kind of narrow, and so you can kind of dig your feet and your toes into like loose dirt, uh, but also you have that flexibility. It's kind of a good all-around shoe.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:14

Yeah, super comfortable, um, pretty durable, the material that they use on the outside. Like it's definitely one that I would in and in fact, on the first the first year that we did the hundred miles for the death hike, that year it was interesting because if you know, and you want to talk about research, like I wore three different pairs of boots on the three days that we hiked. Oh wow. And um one of the days was the speed cross tennis shoe, um, trail, you know, trail hiker, trail runner, um, on my three days of that trip. And the one that and and then this the pair that I disliked the most out of the and then I wore a pair of Las Portivas, and then I wore a pair of crispies. And the pair that I hated the most was the crispies. Although I love them from you know from certain a certain hunting perspective, yeah. I hated them walking 36 miles in one day on a trail. You know, and and that's the that's how you uh in all honesty, that's how you find out if the boots gonna perform under certain conditions is you go out and you grab a pair and you go walk for five to ten miles with or without weight, however you want to do it, on on different terrains, and that's really ultimately what you can do to find out if a boot's gonna work, you know. And when you spend a lot of days in the field, and as you know, like between all the activities and stuff that I do, um it's a lot of days. You figure out what boots do tend to work for you, and you're always searching for you know the perfect boot. And it's so far I haven't found the perfect boot, but I've found a couple of them that I can I can count on to work in 99% of all conditions, you know, um, which is which is you know, I guess the testament to trial and error and and time in the field. You know, if I'm if I'm hunting 80 plus days a year, then I better have something that I feel like I can count on or that I'm I'm super comfortable wearing because otherwise it's gonna keep me those days are gonna dwindle because I'm not I'm gonna I I didn't enjoy that because I was constantly concerned about my feet or was having issues with something or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:21

I feel I feel like hearing you say that after all the miles and the things that you do, like you st you still haven't found that perfect boot, you've gotten close. It's a double-edged story. Like I feel like that could be terrifying for people that are just starting out, hearing someone experienced say that, but also it's also a bit of a relief as well. Like, oh, okay. So this is a like it tells me if I were new, I'd be like, oh, okay, so this is just a process that you have to go through. Like, yeah, you win some, you lose some. I don't need to freaking don't don't get bent out of shape if you've if you buy a shoe or a boot that doesn't work out, like welcome to it's more like haha, welcome to the club. Like in like survive. You love what you do, like you'll figure it out. And pretty soon you'll have a closet full of shoes.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:08

Right. Yeah, exactly. And and I think that you you kind of nailed it in the sense that like you probably won't ever find the perfect boot that works for all for all situations. And some guys are gonna be like, oh, I found it. No, okay. Well, okay, well then let's go let's go hunt you know Arizona in January and let's find out if that's the exact same boot that you would wear if you were hunting you know mule deer in in late November or you know Hawaii in in December or or February or whatever, you know, like it's just not it's not the same. The conditions will will demand a different adaptation to the boot. But um, and I and I I could probably say if somebody said hey, you've got to pick you only get to pick one boot. I probably have that one boot that I would say this is as close to a one boot selection that I could make. If somebody said you can pick two boots, I can nail, like I said, 99% of all the hunting that I can do, I can nail with two different boots, um, especially knowing that I can do certain certain things. Like I have thermal insoles that I use in one pair of boots during late archery season when I know I'm gonna be standing around in the snow a lot, and that thermal insole is not something I'm gonna go hunting or hiking for you know a hundred miles on a death hike in. But if I'm standing around glassing for meal deer for hours, then I sure shit want something different between my foot than just that insole that was provided by the boot company that is not the best thing for for for everything for everything, because some guy said that why would a boot manufacturer put in an inferior insole? You know, so I can I can modify a a boot or a couple pairs of boots to literally probably match up with everything that I'm gonna be doing. You know.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:57

Um, dude, last question for you. In your experience, does pack weight, how does pack weight and um ankle support are they correlated? Do they need to be correlated? Are they are they like higher pack weight, more ankle support, or is that a farce? I've heard that anything uh like one of the the things that hey, if your pack's under 50 pounds, you don't need ankle support, anything over 50 pounds, you should probably start thinking about ankle support. Understanding that caveat um it depends on the terrain that you're probably going through. But in general, what are your thoughts based on your experience with carrying loads in in footwear? Do you need ankle support? Right. Is it a farce?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:53

Um my personal take on it is you're better off putting an emphasis on your training than you are on trying to find a boot that'll support your ankles.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:05

Why is that?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:06

If you're conditioned to well, if you're conditioned to haul a pack that weighs 50 plus pounds, um then you're not gonna need additional support. And most guys, in all honesty, fail in their conditioning, right? They really do. Um they need to be out training with said weight in said pack with the boots that they plan to wear and get their themselves in condition to be able to adapt to the demands that are being placed upon the body, right? It's no different than any other training that you're gonna do. It's like you're not gonna all of a sudden one day just go out and start, you know, like I'm gonna go bench 300 pounds today and just go do it without training up to that level. Um, and I and I think that training your whole entire your whole system is it falls in line with all of that. So it really comes down to a training scenario. I don't think that the weight will dictate whether or not you um you know have an ability to maybe you're more susceptible to ankle sprains because of past injuries, the weight isn't gonna make you more susceptible, it's just gonna further the damage if it happens under a heavier load. So if you are somebody that's susceptible to rolling an ankle, expect that if it happens with 50 plus pounds on your back to be different than if you did it walking you know down your driveway to go check the mail with you know wearing a light jacket or something. So boots do not by themselves provide a lot of ankle support. You know, if they do, it's because you've now had to lace them up so tight that you're probably cutting off circulation for the lower foot and the weight of the lace. Yeah, well, I mean, that and that's reality. Like you you literally have to do that, and you know, the stiffness of the materials is not rigid enough. You know, it's not like it has you know uh aluminum inserts that create the the same scenario that you would get if you had like a an ankle brace or something on. Um they just don't provide a ton of support. I mean, you could take the tops of most any boot and fold them over with your with your hands very easily. Um so I just don't think that a boot provides the support that most people think that they do, you know, especially in a in a single zone lacing system, you know. You I mean half the time it's it's either one of two things. They're either too tight around the the lower half of the foot and too loose up top, or if you try to get it, you can't get it super tight around the lower half of your foot, so your foot your foot slides around a little bit, and then you suck it down real tight around your ankles up top, but it still doesn't make the boot more rigid, you know. So the boot probably gives some false senses of stability to many people. Gotcha. Where the reality of it is that's all on you, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:04

Well, it probably comes down to the maybe it comes all the way back full circle to are you carrying a load over rocks? Are you carrying a load over trail? Are you carrying a load side trail? Are you carrying a load through snow up and over a mountain? Like what are you carrying your load over? You may like and you probably yeah, maybe I mean it sounds like it comes down to that, like application versus like load really doesn't matter, it's the application of the terrain.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:38

Right. Interesting with that too, it's you know, um the resistance doesn't matter if you're training for something as much as the training specific for the activity that you're gonna be doing. Yeah, you know. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:01

Well, when we did that death hike a couple years ago uh out of Frank Church, I wore uh ultras. And when we hiked out uh the 17 miles with the with the heavy packs with all that weight, I was like, uh oh. Like oh, I didn't see this coming. Oh, I did a bad thing. Because at that point we'd you know gone off trail, we came down a big long shoot, and then when we got to the trail for the 17 miles out with 70 miles with 70 pounds, I was like, Oh man, I think I did a bad thing. I should not have worn these things. But surprisingly enough, they felt really good. Now, the caveat there is that we were on a trail, it was a con for the most part most part controlled. I wasn't side hilling, we were going uphill and downhill and all that stuff. But I didn't have any loose debris to deal with. So in that case, like it worked out really well. I would imagine that I would be singing a much different story if we had been doing the 17 miles side hill.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:10

Right. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_02 1:21:11

But it kind of opened my eyes to that. I'm like, oh, okay, well, dude, if I know that I'm hunting in an area that like is kind of flat, or like I don't really have to worry about that, like this could be an option as in terms of footwear.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:26

Oh, yeah, for sure. And I think that some of that just goes back to what we talked about earlier, is like knowing the terrain that you're gonna be hiking in has has a massive amount to do with what your overall experience is gonna be with the boots that you have on your feet, you know.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:41

So I mean, I remember on that that same hike, we just we spent, you know, I don't know if if your listeners have gotten the explanation of what we had to do, but essentially we had to hike 20 miles to start off with, and we had to get into the Frank Church. So it doesn't necessarily mean we had to hike 20 miles into the Frank, but so my group, you know, we decided that we were gonna be smart and we were gonna hike essentially 18 miles to the Frank Church boundary and then two miles into the Frank and then start climbing from there for a significant climb up into what we thought was gonna be bear country, which then we got hit by that hellacious storm and we never even made it up into the mountains. We hunkered down for a day and then hiked out. Well, our 18-mile hike out was after we added that weight, and because of the average weight of our packs, it ended up being that we were over 80 pounds. So, you know, there was a point in time where I was not super happy about the boot choice that I had made, um, simply because it ended up being we were walking on you know gravel road and trail the entire time. So wearing that stiff boot kind of sucked.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:50

Um because they just sucked to work to wear on on roads, you know. So um it would have been nice to have been in a in a slightly different boot situation than what I was in, but you know, at the end of the day, it is what it is. So made it out, and my feet were kind of beat up, and it was 80 plus pounds of weight for a long ways.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:11

Yeah, man. I I hope this is helpful to people. I think it's just sometimes I find it nice just to listen to people talk about their experiences because look, not all of us are have are backpacking or hunting all year round. Like to me, I have to do my best to learn from other people's experiences and mistakes and triumphs so that I can mitigate my own mistakes. And I feel like talking to a person like you, I'm like, okay, cool. Like uh you tell me all these scenarios, I'm trying to pick up these different pieces and put in and then form my own picture based on my own scenario. So, man, I I I think I think this just a learning curve too, right? Yeah, 100%. Like, because no one wants to go out there and suffer. Like, no one wants that.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:57

No. So well, I mean, somebody like Cam Haynes might want to go and suffer, but you know. But you know, hopefully conversations like this do help people and they and they realize like they're not gonna go out and get an aquasock or a uh croc as their hunting boot, right? They're not gonna go hope that the a pair of basketball shoes is gonna work in the backcountry, you know, that they can really start to, I guess, limit the number of different pairs of boots and shoes that they're looking at based on other people's like don't use this in this situation. And so we they get it down to where there's just a handful of options based on the demands that they're gonna be asked to to put that boot through. And once you do that, then you've obviously eliminated a lot of the trial and error based on other people's experiences. And in walking at REI and you see a wall, like you said before, you see a wall full of boots and a wall full of shoes. Where do you even start? And it's not talking to the you know, the bunny loving tree hugger that would uh as soon as as soon as you bring up hunting, he's like, Oh, you know, crosses his fingers and like get away from me, like you know, Satan kind of guy. He's not gonna be able to help you with what you're talking about, right? But you know, there might be a guy there that does or can or whatever, but and then also having a conversation with a guy about you know what his experience was trail hiking isn't necessarily gonna help you, but if you're going to do more trail hiking than you are hunting with your boots, then listen to that guy. He could probably shed some knowledge on some stuff or say, hey, this is my experience with these three pairs of boots. And if you've got idiots like me that's you know probably been through 30 pairs of boots in the last three years, just because I like playing with boots and I've got a pile of them in my gear room now, then I'll tell you what my experience is with all of them. You know, and and that should hopefully help guide you or confuse the hell out of you one way or another.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:51

Well, dude, I I think a good way to to to start when you're like even with choosing any gear, like literally any gear, be realistic with yourself as to what you're actually gonna be doing. Like uh you're probably an anomaly in that you do a lot of different things. There's not a there's not a lot of anomalies out there. Most of most people who want to go backpacking are, and we'll just take backpacking for example, because hunting is its own thing, and even that has its own like average, right? Like backpacker, probably gonna be like I'm a backpacker, I'm probably gonna I would prefer to go in the summer, okay? I would prefer to go when it's nice. I would I you know, like you you start looking at all the things that you're why are you backpacking? I'm going backpacking to have a good time, and then the average backpacker is probably covering like three to six miles a day in nice weather, like all these things, and you're like, oh, you could literally wear anything and bring anything, and you would be successful, you know. Like do optimize for that, you know. Bring the 30, bring the 40 degree sleeping bag for that matter.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:02

Like, right, yeah. It it doesn't need to be the zero, you know, you can spend you know piles of money on a zero degree bag when you can be out there in you know late summer. And granted, you might camp at 5,000 feet, but that doesn't mean that that's the bag that you need.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:15

Exactly. Yeah, I I just I find myself being more realistic, like, yeah, man, just what what do you actually do? What's the average of what you do and buy the gear that's associated with that?

SPEAKER_00 1:27:25

Right. You know, if most of your hikes are just local stuff around, you know, trails and whatnot, then you know you don't need a pair of boots like that. So don't don't don't set your expectations down the wrong path right out of the gate on what your boots are gonna do.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:38

You know, dude, thanks for shedding some light. I feel like this is one topic so we can officially mark this one off the list. Um, there's many other topics, but this is one that I've been thinking about for a very long time. But I'm like, I just want to pick your brain based on your experiences and your background and your knowledge. Because I feel like there's a lot to be learned from your experience. experiences and I I greatly appreciate you um allowing me to ask the the rookie questions.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:07

Rookie questions, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:08

Well hopefully if any if anything it it'll help somebody out there like we talked about shorten that learning curve or get to the point of buying a the appropriate pair of shoe or boot yeah for them um you know faster and that's that's all we can do is to try to help educate based on experience and you know part of that's just age experience age related experience or whatever but um it all adds up over time right yeah man I I I want to give a shout out to like Angry Spike and what you guys are up to because I find that the Angry Spike productions uh so that people can look you up um you think that's the best way to do it like I can put your hash I can put your your Instagram down but what how do you want people to find you before I talk about Angry Spike?

SPEAKER_00 1:28:50

Um I you know honestly I don't really care they can whether it's on Angry Spike or or with my personal stuff um you know topics like this are obviously a little more in line with my personal stuff than they are if we were sitting here having a conversation about elk hunting or something or different hunts that I've been on um you know either way and and hopefully we'll have some conversations about that stuff in the future you know maybe it's ways to maximize your your time in the field or you know how feasible are out of state hunts or um you know some of these other I guess you know quote unquote exotic hunts which not meaning like Africa but doing stuff like Axis deer in Hawaii or two's deer in Arizona or those kinds of things. So um you know if the obviously Anger Spike is right in in line with that and you know it would also be cool to have you know something if we want to get real specific to Roosevelt archery elk hunting we can have Shannon on as well and we can have that discussion um because there's you know he he is a phenomenal wealth of knowledge when it comes to that and being that we live right here in you know the southwest Washington area northwest portland and and the coast ranges of both states are super close that you probably have people that that's what they hunt. So if they want to shorten that learning curve kind of like finding a pair of boots and listening to Shannon talk about the system that he's built in that that line of hunting as well as then my experiences with it and what you know what's happened since I've adapted to that. I think those are great conversations to have and anybody that wants to follow Angry Spike for that stuff absolutely feel free. And then for you know just any just to see the variety of different things that I do whether it's you know split boarding and snowboarding and snowbiking and hiking and hunting and fishing and all that other crap like I'm a jack of all trades dude when it comes to that stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:38

So well that's what's that's what's cool than the average I want to do a separate episode on like the elk hunting stuff and especially like the Angry Spike because dude I one of the things that I appreciate about appreciate about what you guys do with Angry Spike is that it's like long form hunting content that's like you a lot of times the problem that I have with a lot of hunting content is that it's these wave tops perfect storyline um cinematic crap which is beautiful but at the same time like it doesn't really give you a sense of what it kind of gives you this over romanticized um version of what hunting is and then the thing that I admire about what you guys do with Angry Spike is that I think you guys call it like kind of long form like live action type type work where dude you're kind of in the thick of it. Like you might watch a 20 minute video and yeah I mean you can't watch it for like four hours that'd be a long video but like over the course you see like the ups and downs and it's kind of this raw feeling of like no dude this is what it's like out here. Like it's it's crazy. It's it's hot it's hot. It's cold it's hot again it's cold again it's all over the place. And at the end like you get these up close encounters with these giant beasts of the wilderness that can disappear in the matter of like five steps and you're like I'm sorry you're like 500 pounds. Where'd you go? Like and you guys get to document all of that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:11

Right. Yeah we don't I mean for the listeners we don't make hunting films we make films of hunts. So it's different in the sense that we're like ours is you know we as we like to say you know stay tuned for live action because live action films of hunts are different than somebody that takes you know a month's worth of content and turns it into you know a story line we don't really have a storyline it's literally the individual hunts I think we've only technically done one hunting film and it was a submission that we turned in for the full draw film tour which was our um Southeast Alaska Sitka blacktail hunt that we did um which was just an experience in and all of itself like the logistics of getting to where we did because we didn't just go to Prince of Wales we went to an island and an isolated island off of Prince of Wales that we had to get voted out to and you know the whole trip from leaving Kelso and getting there is it was kind of a neat story and then we had great footage of Shannon killing a a stud buck and then unfortunately the day I killed my deer I was out by myself um which would have been another super cool story because I lost my quiver and we can get into this later but I lost my quiver I had one arrow left in camp and I went to find my quiver and I ended up finding the buck and shooting it with that one arrow. So I never found my quiver but I didn't need it anymore because I had I had a dead deer and I was able to recover that arrow. So uh kind of a funny situation but anyway so that's the only real like hunting film that we've done but from start to finish it tells a very good story of the of the trip in itself but everything else is is legitimate like this is just how it is we have a process if you watch it you can learn from it you can get educated by it um it we don't try to cut anything out I mean we obviously make things happen a little faster than they should but it's definitely an educational thing too and and we've done several podcasts with people talking specifically about the the elk hunting and you know to be able to do that on here would be an honor as well. So if and when we get to that point let's do it and and we'll uh we'll get Shannon on and and have that conversation.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:11

I'll buy two more mics yeah there you go yeah dude yeah that would be awesome that I feel like that would be a very special episode just because like I just admire anyone having experienced Roosevelt elk hunting and knowing how like difficult it can be and unique it can be and the the terrain I just admire anyone that can get it done routinely year after year and has a I find that like you and Shannon go at this thing of like very serious but like I think you guys admire those animals so much like and they should be admired.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:50

They're incredible yeah they are and I don't think you know enough people give them the credit for what they are you know especially Roosevelts they're that's a totally different breed. You know we're talking true coastal Roosevelt elk like hunting true coastal Roosevelt elk in on public land only. And to be consistent the way that we have been and the way that you know Shannon has been for a lot of years. I mean his first film was from season 2005 so he was one of the original guys putting stuff out on DVD you know way back when I mean there was only a few guys that were doing it um you know the Will Primo's films of of the the back in the day were kind of you know and a few others were really it early on and so he was kind of a pioneer from that aspect and I mean I remember just as a fan watching stuff of course I knew who he was and I knew his brothers and they were on the videos and his dad and so that was really cool for me. And then you know and when I got the opportunity to start hunting with him in uh 2012 uh it just kind of you know I I absorbed it and took it all in as you know like a sponge and had to forget everything that I knew about what I was doing before and really buy into this process um which has been super successful for me ever since you know which is great. So it it it's it's pretty cool. It's it's neat. It's it's they're fun conversations because you can you can ask situational stuff you can just talk about what that process looks like you know the things that you're looking for from e scouting to I mean it it's it's pretty good. And now you know with the with the success that we've had we got recognition you know in the industry and we've been involved in the destination elk stuff with Corey Jacobson Elk 101 the last two years. So that stuff's all it's really cool. And then we'll be again this year which is going to be great. So anybody listening stay tuned for that because the episodes will be pretty cool. The way that they're gonna change the format up this next year is going to be it's gonna be neat. I'll just I'll just put it that way. I think people will enjoy watching it.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:50

So well dude thanks for coming on man I appreciate the time um definitely want to have you on again chat about some other stuff especially the elk hunting stuff but dude thanks a lot man I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:00

No I appreciate you and um sucks that it took this long but we finally got it done all right that is it for episode 130 with Corey Ford.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:17

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