SPEAKER_01 0:22

Welcome to the Bailand Podcast. My name is Emory. This is episode three. And man, do I have a good one for you? Steve Speck from Exomountain Gear agreed to come on to talk to me about the anatomy of a backpack. Sure, we talk about Exomountain Gear and all that kind of good stuff. But if you want to know more about what goes into a backpack and why it's there, this is the episode for you. This is like the building blocks breaking down Barney style. The anatomy of a backpack. I think it's a great conversation. I learned something. I think you'll learn something, and that's what this podcast is about. So I'm not going to ramble on anymore. This episode's awesome. Thanks for tuning in. I hope you really enjoy this. Steve, thank you so much for coming on and taking the time to talk to me. Can you do a quick introduction and where you come from and all that kind of good stuff?

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Uh sure. Yeah. So my name is Steve Speck. Uh, live in Boise, Idaho, pretty much been here my whole life. Um, pretty avid uh backcountry hunter. Uh that's what I've just, you know, I've been doing it for oh man, um, 15 years probably, something like that. Uh and that's just kind of where my passion lies. Not not specifically hunting, not specifically backpacking, but I really enjoy tying those two together and and getting back there and and working really hard and finding some animal that lives, you know, six miles from any road and and you know, taking that challenge on of hunting that animal. And and uh, you know, for me that's just it's all about that. It it's it's I would much rather kill a small buck way back there than than a big one right off the road that you rode your forego around and shot one. For me, it's that it's all about that experience, and and I I truly just love love backpacking it and just love getting into that country. And you know, that my favorite thing is probably waking up first thing in the morning, sitting on a peak, glassing country, drinking coffee, and and just kind of taking it all in. So it's kind of all of that encompassed into one is is what my passion is. Um and yeah, as far as personal experience, I have no technical background in any of this stuff. I grew up uh basically in a construction family. We you know, from time I was you know 12 years old, I was like we're helping on weekends, and you know, as we had a family, we did these, we did metal buildings, and um from that all the way through college, I basically you know was into sports and stuff like that, and went to school, played sports, and did construction when I could. And uh up until I think it was like 23 years old, uh kind of saw the economy starting to slip and uh had this passion for archery that I was developing and and thought it'd be kind of fun to start a side gig working on bows in my garage. You know, as I was doing it for myself, like building custom bows and taking ones apart, and you know, kind of had that in the construction side of it. Um, a little going back a little bit. We I'd gotten to the point where I was engineering and and basically designing the buildings that we were uh putting up. Um and so I kind of had got into that engineering world. Um, you know, I didn't do the actual put the stamp on the stuff, but I was designing it and we'd run it by an engineer and they'd approve it or not approve it. So I had that little bit of an engineering background that I took into tinkering with bows, and then that went into tinkering with other gear, you know, backpacking equipment and stuff like that. Um so I started a company called SNS Archery, basically out of my garage when I was 23, um, and that evolved into a website. Uh and it's a full-blown, you know, decent-sized company at this point where you've got a few employees, and um, we have that. And along the way, I I did some uh really done a lot of kind of a an ADD type person, uh, where I just kind of like if I I see something, if I if I if I see something and be improved, or especially if it applies to like what I'm doing, basically it all applies to what I'm doing. Whether um that was like we did used to do uh I used to do archery tournaments, and I and I felt like they were kind of lacking. So I uh started up a an archery shoot called the Northwest Mountain Challenge, and that's gotten pretty big now. We've got we do a series of three of them across the Northwest, Idaho, Oregon, Washington. Uh it's a big event, and it's just you know, I just saw a need for that, created it, and uh a good buddy of mine, Tyler Crockett, runs that now and basically manages the whole thing, and I help out when I can. Um we started a I started a uh video company. We made DVDs for a few years, did some TV show stuff as far as all all filming, kind of that backpacking hunting stuff. I was trying to uh Lenny Nelson, who's my partner with XO, my business partner, um we uh you know I we met up and and found out we both like backpacking together and um or backpacking and started hunting together and backpacking and then we started to film our hunts and try to capture that experience, you know, because it's it's so hard to, you know, especially probably 2010 watching a TV show, a hunting TV show. Uh it was all just kind of kill shot after kill shot, and and we thought we could do something different. And that was that was a fun project, and we still have Pure Elvision to this day. We still film our hunts and do a little YouTube stuff here and there, but it's all just fun at this point. Um, yeah, I guess I've done a I designed and created a broadhead called Solid Broadhead Company. Um I've done quite a few projects. I'm I'm 33 now, so in the last 10 years has been pretty active. Um and then to get to XO, which is why I'm probably here on the podcast talking to you, is um, yeah, Lenny and I were backpack hunting together and and basically weren't happy with the packs we were using. You know, we were it felt like there was way too many compromises and and that we were making and nothing that was designed specific for our application. Uh, and basically with no background on how to design a backpack, we just started from the ground up. You know, we we we had our ideas, we looked at uh you know other packs on the markets, a lot of stuff on the backpacking side because we felt they were doing some some more technical things than the hunting side was, um, kind of compiled a list of our priorities and and literally got connected with a sew shop and and went to them with our ideas. And it was a it was a pretty uh fun year. It took a full year basically to get a working backpack. Um and it when we were literally like we had the sew shop, Lenny's wife had been gotten this like pink sewing machine that you know could barely stitch through Cordura. Uh, and we would we'd go to work, you know, we both had full-time jobs, and we'd go home and we'd uh I'd I'd go to his house. He had at the hit at the time his kids were really little. Uh and so I'd go there at eight, nine o'clock at night, and we'd be we'd be working on stuff on that pink sewing machine until 1 a.m. and that was like that was our life for an entire year uh just to get this thing off the ground. So it's it's kind of fun, you know, it was a lot of hard work and and energy and effort and testing that went into getting EXO off the ground.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

So were you when you did the when you guys got this idea for EXO, was it that you were unhappy with the options available, or they didn't like it, every backpack had something you wanted, but nothing was all together?

SPEAKER_00 7:35

Um yeah, I mean, like I said, it was it was you know, my first backpacking trip, and I think uh probably a lot of guys in the hunting world was involved uh Cabela's pack frame with a day pack strapped to it. You know, it was like 12 pounds of backpack to get in there, and that's kind of what you thought you needed, right? I mean, there that was 2000, mid-2000s. Um, and yeah, I mean you were pretty well like that that was your option. You the packs didn't exist that could haul heavyweight comfortably like a pack frame, but then you you needed a you know, the the mindset was you needed a lightweight day pack just to carry your you know, your rain gear and your food and stuff like that to actually hunt with. So um, you know, when in 2010, uh I guess that's when Lily and I started backing together. We started XO, started working on it in 2014 or 13, and then we launched the company in 14. Uh, you know, there was a few other companies starting to kind of go that way um and and make some more technical packs, but still it was, you know, there wasn't a whole lot of options. A lot has changed in the last five years, frankly. There's a a lot of I think the hunting technical backpack market is is uh it's a whole new segment that didn't exist basically five years ago.

SPEAKER_01 8:46

So let me see. My my experience with XO, like I was kind of in that like search realm. I didn't create a I didn't create a company clearly. I'm just like because I found the bag that I like to use. Um I didn't really know what I was doing, and so I just knew that I was uncomfortable and all these different things, and then I was on the search for a bag. This is my my experience. I just I know that like backpacking doesn't have to hurt and it doesn't have to be uncomfortable. And whether it just whether your bags just fit my body or I like the way it functions, to me, like I don't know what happened, but it inside your design for me it just clicked and I was like, dude, I really like this bag. Like this means cool. I'm I don't have to think about my backpack anymore. So first of all, thank you for building this this thing because I'm like finally this unicorn that I was chasing, and I'm like, dang, now I'm really not chasing anymore. I gotta find something else to chase um for the time being. So uh that I mean that's me, but so here I am, like I'm ignorant to the to the point where I don't know how you built this pack or the things that you were taking into consideration to to kind of do like a frame up design. So the idea of this you know, discussion is like I kind of want to break it down to Barney style of like what the heck goes into a backpack and okay. I hiked the PCT and I I hiked with an old what would be considered an ultralight pack, but there are ultralight freaks out there that like are basically just with a day pack and that works for them, but they're not carrying meat, you know. And they're also giving up certain things to get that weight down because the weight means that they can go longer and faster and stronger. But if you try to toss a a deer quarter into their day pack, it would you'd hate your life.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

Right, yeah. And fall apart. Yeah, it's an interesting um, you know, I am I am absolutely uh, especially in the hunting side of it, a minimalist lightweight person. Um and I am all about saving every ounce I can when I can. Uh, I think in the last few years I've started to go back towards a little bit more comfort um in some areas, like for just a random example. I I've always used a Neo Air Um pad, uh thermorest, and I've just been sleeping like crap for the last few years, and I was fine. Like, all right, I've had it, and this year I packed one of the C to Summit Comfort Plus pads, and that thing is freaking amazing. But at 26 ounces, you know, it's like holy crap, that's a lot of weight for a sleeping pad when like one did weigh 12. Um, but for me, that was you know, I think that was a nice trade-off, and my other gear was so lightweight I didn't mind adding the extra 14 ounces, whatever it is. Um, but but in a pack, it's you know, there's a balance there of you get to a certain point where it's so lightweight that it becomes not functional in doing what it's supposed to do, that I think a lot of those people hiking the PCT would be way better off with a more substantial pack because it's gonna ride on your body better, it's gonna the ergonomics of it's just gonna fit you, and you're not gonna feel that weight on your shoulders and dig into you. And there's a lot of other things going on with using stabilizer muscles and fatigue. Um, it's one thing that we really uh that's pretty unique to XO and we started it from day one was a frame that had to move with you laterally. So as you're you're walking and your hips are going forward and back, forward and back with every step, we knew a frame had to move with you. If the frame was really rigid, like a pack frame, I mean you instantly feel that in your hip flexors. Throw 100 pounds on that, hike a mile, and those things are gonna be cramping up and killing you. Um and so if a frame that could move with you uh and reduce that fatigue, uh, you know, I think is it's worth its weight in gold. So if that means adding two pounds to your pack, uh I think a lot of guys would be uh you know benefit that from that a lot more than the two pounds they saved. Um but that being said, you know, we're we're all about like you know, our goal has always been to keep our 3500 under five pounds. Um, you know, that was that's kind of our our mainstay pack, our best-selling pack, and and we we want to keep that weight down because yeah, the difference between five pounds and and eight, nine pounds, you do feel that. And at the end of a long day, you know, that that adds up. You know, I'm a I'm a huge proponent of lightweight, like Solomon running shoes, even for hunting in extreme rough terrain. Uh, I think guys would be way better off than you know, the hunting markets definitely lacks behind the backpacking market, and guys are out there wearing, you know, two and a half pound, 10-inch tall leather boots, uh, and their feet are just killing them and they're tired at the end of the day, and and I'm running around in trail running shoes and you know, just running around happy as happy as I could be.

SPEAKER_01 13:46

Yeah, I mean, I I switched to trail runners um a couple years ago and I was like, Whoa, what have I been doing? And then I switched back to boots too. I was like, well, it can't be that good. And I'm like, I felt like I was walking in clown shoes. Like I really was tripping over stuff, and I'm like, and then here so here's my journey, right? I'm like, I'll switch it to trail shoes, but I'll get Gore-Tex one. You know, I can't go all the way in. And then I hike the the trail, and and everyone's like, do not take Gore-Tex, do not do it. Just don't do it. And I'm like, yeah, but your feet get wet, and they're like, Yeah, your feet are gonna get freaking wet, man. Like they dry out there. And I understand it's two different things, but like, you know, I had to get over that hump of like sometimes you're miserable, and and then the funny thing about your shoes getting wet, you know, on a on a trail, and the I mean, I walked in sopping wet shoes multiple times, but they dry out, and you you you just there's this give and take, right? So yeah, I don't know if I'm buy I I'll buy off on uh hunting in in non-Gore-Tex right now, but I mean it it's definitely an option. So I mean, simple things like that, like yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:51

Yeah, I've not I've not messed with the non-Gore-Tex. Uh I always stick to Gore-Tex. Yeah, you know, we are hunting. I mean, I I think I could absolutely do it early, or uh early season for us when we're doing high country deer and it's really dry and hot typically. Um, the one thing I've noticed, uh, and maybe this is more specific to my Solomon shoes, the non-Gortex versions. Well, I'm sure you experienced this on the PCT, is just the amount of dust that got into the shoe. Yeah, I thought was a negative. I mean, there's some grit in there and it could cost some wear. Maybe I'm wrong. I've never really done it that much to say one way or the other.

SPEAKER_01 15:25

But it's manageable. I mean, you can rinse your feet off in a creek. Again, hunting and back and through hiking is similar, but two different sports and events. So I mean, I I my feet were I took pictures of my feet. I was like, this is disgusting. But you baby wipe them at the end of the day and you know, toss your socks out and and you're good to go. I never had, you know, you know when you're rubbing, and it's not it was a non-issue for me. I wore gators around the bottom just to make sure no dust and major things got into them, but uh I mean I was actually surprised because I had the same concerns. Well, so okay, can you kind of just run through what the anatomy of these uh backpacks? Like if if I don't know anything about a backpack and I I know that I just need the backpack to go into the mountains to do a thing, um, and we'll say I'm staying overnight, I'm going on a backpacking trip because that's what we use these things for. What am I looking at as far as like what should I care about or what goes into these packs? You talked about a frame that moves with you, but some don't. So you obviously have a frame.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

Right. Yeah, so you you you basically have a frame which you know there's a million different variations and types out there, but the the gist of it is something somewhat rigid between you and the bag uh and the bag that's gonna hold your gear. Uh, and then your your harness, so you got your shoulder harness that comes on top of your shoulders, and then your waist belt that wraps around your waist. Uh, and so that's basically the our four components. We have a belt, the harness, the frame, and the bag. Um, and it that's the simplest form of it. Uh from there, you know, it's obviously just gonna vary on what you're doing and the load that you're carrying. Um if you're just ultra-light backpacking, you don't um, you know, you don't need the type of rigidity and and uh stiffness to the frame that we do in a hunting situation. You know, we just literally it's uh just five days ago, uh Lenny killed a bull in in the middle of the backcountry, and you know, he had a 127-pound pack and I had a 112-pound pack, and we had to pack that thing out of there six miles. Uh, you know, and that's just not something that uh you know you're gonna deal with in the through hiking and backpacking world. So our the demands of a hunting pack are you know exponentially higher uh than a backpacking pack.

SPEAKER_01 17:47

And that's what I you know I think that's important to delineate the two things. Like, look, you need to be able to carry that amount of weight. And the thing that allows you to do that is these frames that are not overbuilt, but they're built um specifically for that. So if you're not needing to carry 120 pounds of meat, you may not need, even though it's gonna feel amazing, by the way. Like 30 pounds is gonna feel like a feather, you know. Um but if your base weight's not gonna burst at 40 and you need this overbuilt pack, and I mean, and then everything changes, you know, and overbelt is uh subjective term, I guess. Right. Um so how does the it's so funny? I sometimes I find myself coaching other people, like my friends are like, dude, my backpack hurts, and I'm like, why does it hurt? My shoulders hurt, and I'm like, Well, that's it's not on your hips, man.

SPEAKER_00 18:41

So um yeah, I so I think what you're getting out is basically the the key to the whole system is getting the weight that is in the bag transferred down on your hips. Um and and I think way too many people uh you know, uh basically a lightweight frame is gonna bend and flex, and the more weight you put in it, the more bend and flex it's gonna frames get, and it's gonna put more weight on your shoulders. And that's truly what a pack gets uncomfortable. You know, when you're when it's all the weights on your shoulders, it's digging in, you get knots in your neck. Um, and from there, you know, said getting the weight to the hip belt, that is the most critical, you know, especially in in the hunting pack market, that is the most critical thing, design aspect of the entire backpack. And it's something that we literally we never stop prototyping uh doing that better because you we can't keep, you know, it's like we just keep improving and working on it. And you know, we uh we sometimes we have massive failures. We we we're always prototyping. We took a couple prototype packs up to Alaska this year and packing out caribou and and Lenny had I mean his packet was just absolutely miserable because he was tell testing a new connection and uh you know so we we learned the hard way, but we're doing it on ourselves and not on our customers. Um but yeah, that I mean that is that's the key to it all right there is is the how that frame transfers the load into your hips. And once that you know, I always tell guys a lot of guys get confused with the relationship of the torso to the harness. I'll have guys tell me, like, well, I put the harness on, but the lumbar pad's riding too low, and I'm like, no, stop right there. The harness has absolutely nothing to do with where that lumbar pad is sitting. That is literally you have the harness completely loose, you put the belt on, you decide where that hip belt sits, where the lumbar pad sits, and you cinch up that belt so that that is the solid connection. And and the critical thing there is just get that centered on your hip bones. Uh, I and I think the backpacking market understands that fairly well. The hunting market still sees a lot of guys like walk in the shop to try a pack on and they put the pack down around where they wear their jeans, you know. And I gotta be like, nope, bring that up. Like you almost want that buckle in the front going by your just just below your belly button. Um, and so getting the weight to the hips is the most critical thing because that's transferring all the weight right to your skeleton and you're not pulling on any muscles. So going back to that muscle fatigue and stabilizer muscles and stuff like that, we're basically eliminating all that by getting the weight to the skeleton and then just let you know, let it sit there. Uh, and then from there, you're just gonna adjust your shoulder harness if the pack has an adjustable torso, so that it basically I try to describe it as just floating over the top of your shoulders. You know, with 30 pounds in the pack, I I literally have zero weight on the shoulders if I'm standing or erect and vertical, you know. And if you're gonna, you know, when you're climbing up a hill, you lean forward and basically you're like lengthening your torso because your back is arching and then it's gonna put a little weight on shoulders. But in general, you stand there, absolutely no weight on the shoulders, and that's how a pack should ride. Um, I'm sure some people would argue with me, but and that and that's true.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

Like people are gonna I've heard oh my gosh, I've I've seen videos and I've heard people talk about. the way to don a pack and you know you're supposed to cinch this down and pull that and and I I guess you can try it if that works for you but you know you want that that's the pack against your skeleton so that your the weight's using your own body so you know in my experience like I I so when I did the PCT I started with and I had to use these ultralight bags that I'm not used to and I'm playing constantly playing with it and I'm driving myself nuts because I'm like I know that I have this pack back home that I wouldn't even have to worry about this with but but here I am with this ultralight pack so I'm like okay there's a learning experience and I dropped the pack down to I kind of would wear it like I would my exo pack kind of like I the way I think about it is like a big butt pack, you know like I can I can loosen up those shoulder pads on my exo bag and it just rides on my my back, my hips and I don't have to worry about it. But I do that with the ultralight bag and if something is failing in there most likely because it's overweighted, you know it's the only those packs are only weighted to a certain amount well I start getting knots in the upper part of my my butt.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

So is that something that's common like if you and it's over it's straining that muscle like you said it's not yeah it's yeah and that's and that's where things just get you know you hit you get into the design stuff and I mean we found absolutely like minute little changes in the shape of a belt or how we stitched this to that uh that you know we we use a Velcro patch um that basically connects the belt to the frame so it gives us a really good connection down there. Just like we've changed that you know we went from four inches to five inches to six inches wide and every single inch dramatically changed how the pack rode and felt uh and so it's it's a really you know it's really interesting there and then the the part that gets hard is we're all different shapes. You know we we I get a guy who's you know five foot eleven and 140 pounds and the next guy is five foot five and two twenty uh we got different back profiles and shapes and so it's it where we struggle and it's hard is is you know we're a small company so it's not like we can have a ton of different offerings uh and we got to find uh one pack that basically fits the most amount of people that we possibly can and it's not always going to be perfect. But the the biggest thing that we probably run into is is straight back versus curved back. Some guys have a have a a you know a don't have much of a curve um right there at the top of their butt, you know the base of their spine. And so those guys as a general rule complain about lumbar pads feeling like a knee in their back they complain about a belt sliding down and sitting on their butt uh and then you know the guys with the more curve like I have a I have a really deep curve to my lower back um and and a belt just locks in on me. I mean our our belt like I can put 200 pounds in the pack and cinch that thing tight and it won't go anywhere. So you know you just kind of run into these different body shapes and profiles and um you know inside of the design of the pack there's a lot of stuff you can do to accommodate um you know like like you said it's packs can be like boots where like you know it could be absolutely perfect for one guy and the next guy who's you know same size foot uh absolutely things that's miserable so um definitely some fit stuff there and and uh you know with your pack if it's sagging on you you know it's most likely just the the either the frame and the stiffness of that frame so it's flexing and bending or the connection of the frame to the hip belt and so it's just not efficiently transferring that load into the belt. From there it's just you know then you can get into a myriad of of other things that could be going on but that's a spider web of yeah and that's the confusing part I think that like the more you know about these packs you're like man it really is a spider web.

SPEAKER_01 26:01

You're you're saying that you change something by an inch or using you know these different things and you're seeing massive changes like that should goes to show that it's yeah it's a difficult and you're constant you you you haven't kept the same you're changing all the time. I mean or you're trying to you're trying to find the best way to do it. Right I mean so let's say you you meet someone that's like backpacking sucks because it hurts. And you're like well yeah it can suck and it can hurt but it doesn't have to and what's the biggest complaint how do you know that you're like dude it's your freaking backpack um you know I usually they just tell me what the pack is and I go okay yeah that's you know that's the problem right yeah it's not an exo yeah um you know there's there's good some there's some good packs out on the market and then there's there's not some that aren't designed you know that are just poorly designed um you can you can you know especially in the last five years since we've been doing EXO you know I've started from knowing nothing to uh you know we're continuing to learn but we we've learned a lot uh and just all through trial and error right like I said we just we're always tinkering and playing with stuff um and yeah you could you can pick it apart or I can pick it apart pretty quick at this point of like okay that's that's where they messed up there that's the wrong shape there and um and that's gonna cause yeah I can see that that's gonna cause pressure here or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

So um but in general you know I I think where most companies go wrong in the in the hunting pack market is is a frame that just doesn't transfer that weight down to the hips. Okay. And it and it it just it has to be somewhat rigid in order to do that. If if the frame is just bending and flexing as the load gets heavier it's only making things worse. But yeah it's a it's it's a the guy I talked to he came into our uh office today and he just got done packing out he just had an elk head the horns and the cape which is you know can be heavy 60 70 pounds something like that uh and he was like the most miserable thing in his life you know he finally like had that you get to the truck drop the tailgate and flop down into the back of it and he's like he's like almost on the point of tears he said it hurt so stinking bad and here it is a week later and he's still like got bruises on his shoulders and knots in his back you know and and that's like the extreme example of it does not have to be that painful you know like said there's always some discomfort um but truly you know with a well designed pack throwing a hundred pounds in it and hiking six miles you know it shouldn't be uh it shouldn't be an issue it shouldn't to me the the the how I kind of define it is you know there's going to be some discomfort in that six miles but the second like the second we got done packing out Lenny's bowl uh got to the trucks cracked open a beer sat there for about half an hour that was it right I mean there was no no red spots no pain no knots in your shoulders to me that's kind of a the a good definition of like okay the pack did its job and that was comfortable.

SPEAKER_01 29:03

Do you find that the but most people or not most do you find a lot of people just accept the fact that like they look at those bruises and stuff and they're like heck yeah man yeah yeah badge of honor. Yeah and you're like I I guess that's kind of cool but I like to not be feeling like deaf.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

No I I think people don't have the perspective um and myself included before we really started getting into building a pack um you know pack outs were miserable I mean I I remember you know some of the first animals I killed backpacking it was it was torture you know just like this guy's experience I was talking about of yeah like that was it was a big deal and and and it it shouldn't be with if you have a proper fitting well designed pack.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

Huh you know I only realized that once I started I kind of just accepted I'm like I was in that boat of like well I guess this is just gonna suck. Right like I apparently a big weenie and you know I was in the Marine Corps like I can do the suck like I can I can live in that I don't want to I mean I could do it and but I don't want to do it all the time and and then you start playing with different bags and I didn't know the anatomy of them and but I I just knew it didn't feel right and I'm like I can't accept the fact that this pack that my body hates me. And then you end up finding a bag that is we'll just call it like suited for you. You know like whether it's the layout personally like it has to fit right for me to sign off on it but then it's even better if I like the way it's laid out. So like because that's gonna annoy me if it's not and so there's so much that goes into it and I think for me I'm like finally learning I'm like oh dude once I finally had that bag that nothing hurt. Like just don't accept the fact that it has to hurt because it doesn't have to unless you have that 120 you're like dude okay it's gonna be kind of uncomfortable but you're gonna be okay.

SPEAKER_00 30:58

Yeah yeah yeah it's funny it's you know it's it's all perspective like I remember um I you know I went from uh wearing cotton clothes hunting to graduated to like under armor synthetic stuff and and I got that and I thought that was amazing uh and then I ran into uh kit and carruth who's the owner of first light wool and and uh I remember getting some samples from them I was gonna sell it through SNS and testing it and I was blown away you know it was like my eyes had been opened and and I had no perspective I didn't know you know I thought under armor was as good as it was going to get right and then then once I discovered merino wool it was like holy crap my my my whole life's changed and now I now I wear that stuff like on a daily basis. Well it's all perspective you know sometimes ignorance is bliss in the sense that if you don't know any better you don't know any better and you just suck it up and do it. But um I think if I you know I definitely want to get the word out to people that if their barrier to getting out and experiencing the backcountry whether that's hunting or hiking or whatever uh if they're afraid of of the the pain and suffering or whatever that you know that should not exist. If you if you get everything set up right and have a good pack backpack and you know we always say backpacks and boots those are the two things you don't skip on you can have a heavy tent you can have an old synthetic sleeping bag that's kind of heavy uh and still have a really good experience but though the backpacks and boots you know those are the two you you want to get those things dialed in before you go out and and if you do you're gonna have a good time.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

Man when I take people for the first time I'm like I take it very serious because I'm like I don't want you to hate this so I want to make sure that it's as beneficial as possible so that you keep coming back because it's too good to just not come back. Right. And if that like you said if that's your barrier because the it's the pain like it should be other pain. It should be pain of like climbing a hill and being winded you know not yeah exactly that's a good pain because I mean I talked about I'm like every hill makes you stronger you know like though that's good pain. I mean I also had really bad pain on my trail um that I was like okay I know what's happening maybe not know what's happening but I just it's part of the deal you know but it wasn't you know if I had backpack pain I'm like I need to figure this out because this is not right something's shifted something's changed so what oh I mean that's an I that's another topic like let's say you have the right backpack and it fits you well can it still go wrong by packing it the wrong way yes yeah and that's like I said start with a pack get it fitted properly and then from there as a company our biggest challenge is educating people on how to properly load a pack um and and weight distribution can make or break the pack.

SPEAKER_00 33:46

You know I I think uh that's one thing we we with our original skeleton frame versus our new newer K2 frame is we we really fought to um make that the K2 frame um I lost the word but basically you could screw it up and it wouldn't you wouldn't pay the price as much okay that was more it was more forgiving of an awkward load um where with the original skeleton frame properly loaded that thing carried phenomenal but guys would strap stuff off you know strap basically the the the key to everything is getting the weight high and tight that's what how we always preach it just in between your shoulder blades and tight to your back and it's the whole premise of our of our frame design is that the bag removes from the frame so when you do have that meat that really heavy load that dense meat is right against your back and it's going to carry a lot better and then you've got your lighter gear or sleeping bag and tent that's further away from your body. But that's that that's absolutely everything and really even I mean just how you load your 30 pounds in your pack can make a difference on how that rides. But the the key to it all is just keep that you know whatever the heaviest item you have have that between your shoulder blades uh and then lighter stuff in the bottom of the pack and that's going to make a huge difference for you.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

How can you tell someone's jacked up the organization and the the load distribution when you're going in on a trailhead and you're like oh my gosh you know you've had that moment.

SPEAKER_00 35:18

Right yeah um you know again it like I had a funny I was uh I went on a solo elk hunt um just early in September I had 24 hours in between trips and ran up just to go try to shoot one really quick and uh I was I was hiking out and ran into this group of hikers coming in and they were they weren't hunters they were just hiking um and they had uh the biggest thing is probably they just had ginormous like 8,000 cubic inch packs oh I love that stuff I love that one that's my favorite stuff strapped everywhere and this poor lady like she was in the back of the group they were like five miles in there and she just looked like death like she was pale sweating like crazy and I mean I just like I felt so bad I wanted to stop and like help her like reorganize her pack and take half the crap out and leave it there. So I think that's you know one area a lot of people especially you know if you're new to backpacking is packing way too much stuff but you know again you have that unknown and you don't you just you know you kind of got to go through that process and learn what you need and don't need um but yeah so you know wait high and tight and then just don't you know I people strap stuff I I absolutely despise stuff strapped to the outside of the pack um because again we're we're we go back the people don't pay attention to the all the little stabilizer muscles in your body um and you know like a good example would be go hike 10 miles a trail and go hike 10 miles like exact same elevation profile and everything uh of off trail and you're gonna be like four times as tired off trail and why because you're using stabilizer muscles the whole time you can't just relax and walk right uh and so you got stuff hanging off the back of your pack it's swaying so every time you move right it sways right and then you go back and it's just pulling you off balance that whole time so we really like with our pack design try to keep everything integrated into the pack and I always tell people like I hate it when I see a picture of someone's got a big old sleeping bag strapped to the bottom or a tent strapped to the outside like buy the bag size that you need to fit all your gear inside the pack and you're gonna be way better off because it's gonna be riding nice inside there. Everything's gonna be tight to the frame uh and you're gonna be you know it's gonna be comfortable for you so I think that's definitely an area where people go wrong is is packing the pack and then and then the biggest one there is just some people take way too much crap.

SPEAKER_01 37:47

Well so the guy that I hiked with this year he had we we always say like I don't know who said it but someone told us they're like well you pack your fears and my buddy I mean he's on another podcast that I'm gonna get out there he's like man I had a lot of fears man like and and it took he he was terrified you know he had fears just fallen out of his pack and and it's true though like you you re you you sit there and you're like I need this this this and this and all of that adds up to like weight equals you know or fear equals weight and inefficiency and all these different things and but you gotta start somewhere so I totally get it. I mean I'd I'd rather see that person I I would see people coming out for day hikes or even you know when I was back home backpacking I'm like cool at least you're out here doing this and you're giving it a shot you're gonna get better at it.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

Yep. Yeah I always encourage people um to you know it's what I did with my own stuff was was create a gear list um and basically at the end of a trip unpack your pack and go okay I used that check I didn't use that you know draw a line through it um and I think uh Mark the podcast host that we do with our podcast he had he had like a three strikes and you're out thing so if he's like you went on three trips and never used uh for me like extra pair of underwear you know maybe gross but I never ever use them stop bringing them right I mean it's stop bringing them I remember my early trips I'd you know packing your fears I'd be like well what if I got wet so I'd throw an extra pair of pants in and crap like that and uh you know I think it's just important to to make sure you're whittling that down and at some point you know like my base hunting pack weight is like 17 18 pounds um so at some point I'm so stinging lightweight that now I'm okay with adding a little bit of weight back in but if you're you know when I talk to guys and they're like yeah I'm loaded up and I'm like my pack's 60 pounds for a four-day trip then I'm I'm like dude you you need to cut 20 pounds out of that you've got way too much stuff um and then you know there's different scenarios like we went up to Alaska this year we're dropped off in the middle of nowhere yeah I'm gonna pack my fears there right because yeah uh yeah you know I think in the in the lower 48 when you know in reality you're it's pretty rare to be more than half a day's walk from some road um worst case scenario you walk out I mean that's kind of been my go-to the last five years is I just keep getting more and more lightweight with my stuff is like yeah if it's big deal I gotta walk out of there you know um so that's kind of my philosophy on on you know just get away from packing your fears is not the end of the world if you gotta go back out to the truck and get an extra pair of pants or something like that. You lose half a day you know whatever.

SPEAKER_01 40:36

I mean exactly I mean that's a whole other topic of like how to how to sort through what to bring and what not to bring and how to how to deal with that. So there's uh I'm thinking of my friend oh he's so great. You I wish we could have talked before we left because he would have benefited so well and he'd probably be he's gonna listen to this and start laughing. Uh there's these things called load lifters or what do you guys I mean I've heard a couple different terms. Um load lifters is what I call them. Can you explain these load lifters and because for the life of me I was like bro tighten those things up just a little bit get some tension on them.

SPEAKER_00 41:16

And he he was like well okay and you know so can you explain what load lifters are where they're at and how they work and why you shouldn't what you should do with them right yeah um so yeah loadlifters basically goes from the top of the frame which ideally um in order to lift that that needs to be above your shoulders uh there's a lot of different backpack companies and backpacking experts that are gonna argue that needs to be 30 degrees or 40 degrees or you know 22.5 degrees um for me you know and this is actually I I've actually kind of you know a lot of stuff uh through trial and error and just kind of sometimes we go into some backpack design thing with like okay this is how it's gonna be we know this right and then we we you know keep an open mind and find out well whoa wow that's actually not what we expected um load lifters are very very important um but the most important thing is that rigid frame that gets the weight belt weight transferred down to the hip belt um and so for me uh you know the the load lifter itself like as long as the the torso adjustment is set up properly they're not as critical as I think some people try to tell you that they are okay um that's my opinion it's completely opposite of like before we started XO I thought load lifters were the most essential thing in the world um but they they do fall second to just a frame that properly transfers that load into the belt because I I I try to use the example of I could literally hike with 100 pounds in our pack without a shoulder harness on right the only thing the harness is doing is keeping it from falling away from my body to me that's a properly set up pack. But there's going to be natural sag that happens uh you're gonna put 100 pounds in gravity is going to fight you a little bit or even 30 pounds. And so your your load lifter basically if the harness is pulling down on your shoulders and putting a lot of pressure and you're gonna get knots in the back of your neck and you're you know um you you basically are going to pull on the load lifters and they do two things. One they suck the frame back up to your body so if if there's any flop back there I think that with an exo that's where the most helpful they are is just making sure that there's no sway. And they're gonna take the pressure because that that strap is sewn if if the the harness is put uh the torso height is set properly that the where the load lifter straps sewn into the harness should be right around your collarbone and you're basically drawing a straight line from the top of that frame down like past your chest and you're gonna pull on that it's gonna transfer the load kind of pull More from your chest and pull into you versus pulling down on you from the top. And so, yeah, there what happens, like I said, with you know, basically the heavier that pack gets, that's why load lifters you know keep getting more and more critical, you know, the more sag you're gonna get, and you're basically lengthening your torso. Um, and so really what one thing I've done in the past, if I'm gonna have an extremely heavy load with a long hike out, I'll actually just raise my torso like one slot in an exo. Um because it's just gonna happen. You're gonna have, you know, it's just not gonna sit as high as it is with you know 30 pounds in the pack. Um, and that's kind of one way to it's kind of doing the same thing, right? If uh I'm just increasing that distance from the the hip belt to the top of the shoulders where a load lifter, you know, basically sucks that volume out, um, or just basically kind of increases it's lifting up the harness on you. Um and so that is a that's my opinion. I'm sure some other backpack experts would completely disagree and argue with me. Um, but through personal experience, um if you have a good stiff frame that's transferring the weight down to the hip belt and the torso is set up properly, the load lifter really almost becomes more of a load stabilizer and keeps that load from flopping and rolling around. Um and uh yeah, you know, and they do come in handy. I just see um a very common thing that I see is people over-tightening stuff, um, over-tightening the harness. Um, that's that's a huge mistake. Like I said, guys will start, they put a pack on, they kind of get the waistbelt like kind of snug, and then they'll take the harness and just cinch the crap out of it to where they can't breathe. Um, and then they'll take the sternum strap and pull the crap out. Like, I think as humans, we have this natural, like, okay, there's a strap here, it needs to be tight, right? Like it's like a natural instinct. Uh, and I I really think that's not, you know, that's not the case. The the waistbelt, absolutely, get that sucker as tight as you possibly can. Um, uh every other strap on the pack in relation to the harness and the torso and the load lifters, uh, I always like to preach just snug up. Um, don't over-reef on them and pull on them because then you just start distorting things and and and making a mess out of it. Um I think a lot of people would be better off with that. It's that everyone that comes in and into the shop and I fit a pack on them, I kind of run them through the steps. And um and another point is if you do got the load lifter, if you're packing a heavy load or whatever, you got you pull really tight on those load lifters. Make sure when you take the pack off that you loosen those back up before you put the pack back on. Um, because people will uh uh you basically kind of get like creep. Like you start tight, then you put it back on, and there's a relationship between that load lifter strap and the and the your your harness strap. Um, and so you basically just kind of pull the whole harness up, and then you go tighten the harness, and then you go tighten the load lifters, and you kind of get to this spot where like if someone took a picture, you'd see a big giant gap at the top of the shoulder harness behind your shoulder. Um, and so it's something that we always try to make sure people understand is make sure you loosen up the packs. Um, like a good example is we used to do uh uh a true load stabilizer strap, which was basically a strap that was a 45-degree angle off the belt up to the frame. You saw that on our original skeleton frame. 95% of our customers misuse that um because they would tighten it up, they'd take the pack off, they put the belt back, you know, they put it back on, then they tighten it up, and they tighten it up, and they got to the point where the belt would just be permanently like at a 45-degree angle up because they never ever loosened them, they just kept tightening them every single time. And when you go to put the pack back on, it'd kind of sit at a different angle, and it'd all be loose and they tighten it up. So we you know, and that would cause a lot of excess pressure on the front of the hips and a lot of pain. Um, and so yeah, we just ended up redesigning the K2 frame so that the harness we just retweaked a bunch of stuff so that they were you know not near as uh essential to the pack.

SPEAKER_01 48:01

Huh. Interesting. I yeah, that's man, if there's like you said, I mean, if there's a strap that can be tightened, might as well tighten it.

SPEAKER_00 48:08

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:08

It's like it's it's natural instinct, but man, I tell you what, the the things that I saw in five months of backpacking were it was ridiculous. Like I can't I can't imagine that the the best the best was like the day hikers. Uh the day hikers and the weekenders and the section hikers, and people get all crowned up and they're like, Oh, clearly you're a section hiker, and and then you're like, Man, we're all jacked up, man. Like everyone's trying to figure it out, and everyone's in pain out here, and I'm like, but it's super funny. You're like, and then you see those those ones, and you're like, clearly, dude, you need to go back to the drawing board because that looks like it's painful.

SPEAKER_00 48:51

Yeah. Yeah, I yeah. There should never, I mean, even if you're doing the the entire trail like you did, I you know, outside of your feet hurting and and sore muscles and stuff like that, I I don't think you should ever be in pain. I I just you know, I'm I'm sure stuff's gonna pop up of of knee pain and tendons hurting and this and that.

SPEAKER_01 49:08

But well, and and that's why I I didn't accept I I went through two bags. I um granite gear sponsored the program, so they gave us granite gear bags and I used an ultralight bag, which is a brand new bag that they use this year, and it was it's great if under a certain weight. Um if you go over that weight, it it breaks down because it's not built for that. So I was overpacking it and I was in so much pain, it was on my shoulders, and there's nothing I could do to transfer that weight to my skeleton. So I called the program and I'm like, I can't do this, I cannot hike in pain like this all the time. And you know, everyone's wearing the same bag and they're in pain, and I'm like, I gotta do it every way. So they sent me out a different bag, and I'm like better, closer, warmer. Um still I'm like craving this exo bag back home. And I'm like, gosh, okay, at least it's working. And you know, as I got used to it and I got better at packing, it became better and and it formed my body a little more. But um, I mean, I I just didn't accept like you said, you're hiking a number of miles a day, there should be legs that are tired and feet that are tired, and maybe your brain a little bit, but like let's remove all those like the pains that are unnecessary. And the background is one of them. I mean, and I just didn't accept just from my internal knowledge of like it doesn't have to hurt, I need to try something else. And the program was willing to swap it out and be like, let's find a pack that works for you. So that was great. It was awesome to try that out.

SPEAKER_00 50:38

What was your pack weight on that? I mean, obviously you had days where you probably had to pack a lot of water and stuff, but just your base weight.

SPEAKER_01 50:44

You know, I need I I'm really curious. I never weighed my final pack weight by the time I got to Canada, so I need to do it. I'm gonna guess, I'm assuming it's probably right around 15 pounds, maybe, uh maybe a little bit less, maybe 10, it could be around 12. Dude, I sent my pants home. Like I was hiking in shorts. I mean, I'm literally walking all day long thinking, I'm like, Jose, you know, my buddy, I'm like, bro, is there anything we can else we can take out of these bags? And he's like, dude, I've been thinking about that for like two days. And I'm like, all right, well, you know, and I'm I'm we even thought about going stoveless because people there's weirdos out there that they're like, um, yeah, I just cold soak everything and I don't even eat, I just eat you know bars every day. I'm like, that's not gonna help.

SPEAKER_00 51:27

Yeah, that would be that'd be a tough one. I think I'd miss my coffee the most.

SPEAKER_01 51:31

Dude, right? I'm like, that's just not that's that's a no-go for me. So but I mean you you sit there and you think about all these things, and luckily I got I could wash rent three P, I could try something for three days and know, like, cool, I'm gonna be in town to this other spot. I can fix it if I need to. So I'm just gonna try this weird thing for the next three or four days, and the worst that could happen is I'm uncomfortable and I don't do that next time. But we don't get that opportunity all the time, and and so I I got to try things out that I normally wouldn't have, like sending my pants home.

SPEAKER_03 52:04

Well, what happens if you get wet?

SPEAKER_01 52:05

Well, what happens if you get wet with pants? They just dry out, and right. I mean, it's weird you you're like you feel exposed, and I'm getting cuts and scrapes, and I'm like, well, cuts and scrapes, like yeah, okay, big deal.

SPEAKER_02 52:17

Big deal.

SPEAKER_01 52:18

Like, and I I don't think I would ever hunt in shorts, but I don't know, maybe I would, maybe I'll try it someday if it's country.

SPEAKER_00 52:25

There's a lot to be said for um just you know, kind of accepting some level of discomfort of you know, I said I like I never pack rain gear on a hunt, and people some people think that's crazy, and it's just like, dude, I'm yeah, if it rains, you know, like I mean, if it's a hundred percent chance it's gonna rain, I'll I'll pack rain gear, but that's really, really rare. Um, if it's like just maybe gonna rain one day, you know, it's like, okay, yeah, I'm gonna be kind of cold and miserable for that day, but I'm gonna survive. And you know, if you just kind of go into it with that attitude of like, hey, if I get wet, it's not the end of the world, I might be a little cold, but you know, big deal. Light of fire or whatever. Yep, you have a plan. You have a backup plan.

SPEAKER_01 53:03

You have ideas of how you're gonna adjust.

SPEAKER_00 53:06

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 53:07

Huh. So, okay. Man, one last question for you. Like, you've you started out backpacking, you do these crazy external frames. Like, how have you evolved? Like, do you remember what it was like? What did you want in a backpack when you first started, and what do you want now?

SPEAKER_00 53:27

Um yeah, uh evolved in a backpack design. Uh we haven't really um you know, I I think we're on that quest for the perfect pack still, so we're still on the same trajectory path as the day we started. Um, you know, and it's tough as a company like me personally. I think I could do with a little bit more minimalist on some of the pocket layouts. Um, but we're trying to, you know, we try to build a really well-rounded we always talk preach about just like it's a really well-rounded, balanced pack. Um, and you know, sometimes sometimes practically just like you know, we could shave a pound off the pack, but what you would give up for in discomfort with heavy loads isn't worth it. We could save a little bit of weight in the bag design, but uh you know, the efficiency of getting your gear in and out, you know, sometimes, you know, if you're you're backpacking, it's not a that big of an issue, maybe a nuisance, but if you're hunting, sometimes time is of the essence. Totally. Uh, and so getting uh a spinescope and a tripod out of the pack is something that needs to happen pretty quickly in right. So we have full-length side pockets that accommodate that, so you don't have to throw it in with all your gear and do a yard sale when you're trying to get something out of the pack. So um, but no, we're still, you know, like I said, I like I lay awake at night and and you know, I kind of geek out on like I have I've always had this perfect pack in my mind, and and we still haven't got there yet. We're still we're working, you know, it's what keeps us pushing forward every single day is is just continuing to uh work and perfect that. And um, I think we're getting, you know, we've made a lot of strides in in five years and we're getting closer. Um, but uh yeah, it's it's it's the it's part of the fun of it, you know, is owning a small business and designing backpacking products. Uh you know, you you get a challenge yourself and and just get out there and have fun. And I said we we do all of our stuff, like I said, just through trial and error. We we we come up with some freaking crazy idea, and all right, let's sew one up and try it. And have sometimes we have massive fails like we did in Alaska, and sometimes we hit a home run. So you just never know. That's cool, man. Um, and then personally from a backpacking thing of evolving, um, you know, like I said, it's been uh started at the extreme heavy end of of you know a freaking pack frame and enough stuff I probably could have lived out there for a month when I was just planning to go for three days and uh to get into you know be ultra ultra lightweight minimalists and then and this is the first year I kind of I think I probably threw maybe two pounds back into my pack for a few extra comfort things, um, which was kind of you know it's cool to be at that place. Um but for me it's always been the mental side of it. I remember I'll never forget my first trip ever. I you know, I I literally I found a place on Google Earth. Uh didn't even like I don't even think I knew how to do the mileage on you know how to track how far it was. I was just like, okay, I gotta get to there. So I got to this ridge and hiked along this ridge, which is up and down a thousand feet up, and just kind of got in there and ended up being like eight miles or something like that. And I was like on a solo elk hunt. I had no freaking clue what I was doing. Um and for me, my my I had packed a pistol in there uh in my first night ever alone in the backcountry by myself, and I didn't sleep one minute. Like every sound outside my tent was some frickin' bear that was coming to eat me. Um and I'll I'll never it was it's officially when I caught the bug because I I woke up, I even like I saw elk, I kinda hunted them. Um, but by like 10 a.m. I was like, okay, nope, I'm done, I'm out of here, this isn't for me. Um, and literally, like before I got to the truck, I was somehow already planning my next backpack trip.

SPEAKER_03 57:15

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 57:16

It was like this weird just drug that got a hold of you of like, wait a minute, that was freaking awesome, right? Like sitting inside my tent afraid that a bear was gonna eat me all night long was a bad assessment. Felt really, really good. Yeah, you're alive, right? I mean, it's a hell of a lot better than sitting at home watching a movie on a Friday night. So um, yeah, for me, it's always been that mental thing of uh that's my biggest hurdle, is just fighting that challenge of um accepting that discomfort. And yeah, um, and nowadays it's it's gotten pretty easy. I I love uh I love going on solo trips and and the challenge of that, and I love going out with buddies and hunting with them and the camaraderie aspect of that. So um, yeah, it's just uh like I said, backpacking in all forms is definitely just my passion.

SPEAKER_01 58:04

Dude, I love that, dude. That's uh I love that story. That's so recognizable.

SPEAKER_02 58:11

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:12

Um this whole idea of this Byland podcast is like helping people remove barriers to entry, and like if we can if the people on here can help inform someone or like help them remove a thing to get them outside, that's that's the whole point of this entire thing. Like, I just want to see people outside and and not afraid to try things. So I I I try to make it a point to ask guests, like what is your like what's a piece of advice that was that you would have wanted to hear from people uh more experienced than yourself? Um like what would you tell people get just getting into like kind of at that weird spot? Like, I kind of want to get in, but I don't really know.

SPEAKER_00 58:59

Um you know, honestly, uh uh my personal life philosophy is literally push yourself, like you know, start taking a step forward, but like almost just fall forward to where you have to put your foot in front of you, or you're gonna fall on your face, uh, and you're gonna figure it out. You know what I mean? We didn't know how to make a backpack, I didn't know how to start an archery company. I mean, everything I've done, I had no prior schooling or experience in, but I've always just kind of like I live by that mantra of like literally just push yourself and you know get the ball rolling, get it started, and and figure it out. And and who cares if your first trip is 60 pounds of gear and miserable and suck, you're gonna catch that bug, you're gonna figure it out, you're gonna improve. And you know, you I think you can sit at the computer and watch YouTube video after YouTube video and research and research and research, but at the end of the day, you'd gotta take that first step uh and just go do it. Um, and you know, if if you're scared, do something easy. Go go park off the highway and and hike half a mile in there and go stay the night, you know, and then branch out from there. But just take that first step. And I think that's important. And like I said, you just kind of commit to it and and you have to have that self-confidence and trust that whatever it is that's thrown at you, you're gonna figure it out. Um, so that's that's my advice. Just just start.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:26

Dude, I love it. That's like as basic as it can get, like, and it's incredibly important because if you don't start, you won't do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:32

So huh.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:34

So how can um how can people find you in Xo Mountain Gear and all these other things?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:38

Yeah, um Xo Mountain Gear, just XO Mount EXO Mountain Gear.com. Um, yeah, we're we're you know, websites up, we're just a small company on Boise Ido, just selling direct. So if you got any questions, that that number on there just transfers to my cell phone, so you're gonna get me. Uh and uh um yeah, reach out by email. I'm not a huge social media guy. I I I have a love-hate relationship with it. Um, but I'm I'm on Instagram at steve.jspec or steve.j.spec. Um same thing on uh Facebook. I'm on there a little bit, but definitely call me or email me. I'd much rather talk to you than than message you on Instagram. So if you have any questions, definitely reach out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:19

Dude, that's awesome. I love it. Um yeah, you dude, thanks for coming on, man. That's uh I I think this was gonna I think this is gonna help someone somewhere be like, cool, this is straight from the horse's mouth of a guy that's still trying to pursue the perfect bag.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:34

Yeah, absolutely. I said if anyone has any questions, definitely just reach out. I'm happy to help.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:39

All right, man. Thanks, Steve.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:40

All right, thanks a lot.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:50

Well, thank you so much for tuning into this episode of the Byland Podcast. Special thanks to Steve from EXO Mountain Gear for taking the time out of his day to talk to me. Understanding how backpacks are built and why they're built that way will just set the foundation for your success in the backcountry. If you have the wrong bag, look, you're just not gonna be comfortable. So I hope that you took something from this episode that you can take with you into the backcountry the next time. Maybe you have the right bag, maybe you don't, maybe you want to check out Exo Mountain Gear and see what they do. Um either way, I'm just glad you tuned in and I hope that you took something away from it. If you like this podcast, go ahead and uh let me know. You can reach me at emory at byland.co. Go to my website, www.byand.co, and subscribe to my newsletter if you want to stay in touch. Also, one last thing, uh if you like what you heard, shoot me a review on iTunes and uh maybe I'll try and give something away at some point. But right now I just need to reach more people, so that would be greatly beneficial. So thanks so much, and uh I'll see you next time.