Brad Brooks on New Tent Designs

Emory 0:00

Hey guys, emery here with a quick message before we get going. I'm going to be better about getting the word out about episodes this year, and the best way to do that is by an email. So I've created a custom email list for podcast subscribers only, where, when a new episode goes out, you will get a note from me telling you that it's been published, along with what the episode is all about. I will leave a link in the show notes to a webpage where you can sign up for that email list if you so choose. And no, I will not be spamming you with irrelevant links and stuff like that. I don't have time for that. I just want to send out information to people that want to know the thing they want to know about. So it'll only be a hey, here's the latest episode type stuff and maybe some fun stuff that I've found and want to share with you guys. That's it. So if you want to sign up to that email list, great. If not, I'm cool. Either way, just want to put that out there before we get started. All right, here we go. Welcome back to the Byland Podcast. My name is Emery, thank you so much for being here and welcome to Better Backpacking.

Emory 1:29

This is episode 166, and my guest today is one of my favorite people in the outdoor industry and in general, Mr Brad Brooks of Argyle Outdoors. This is Brad's third time on the show. The first time he came on, we talked about his film about hunting the Frank Church Wilderness, why we hunt and what it all means, and there's a link to that film in the show notes if you want to check that out. The second time he came on, we talked about our gollies' shift in focus from being a gear dealer to making their own gear and why that was important to them. And this third time we're coming full circle and talking about Argali's new line of backcountry tents, which I am absolutely pumped on because I had a chance to try out their four-person Absaroka last summer when Jess and I took the girls on the first backpacking trip and I fell in love with it.

Emory 2:19

Brad's tents come in a pyramid or teepee style design, where they're designed around a single center pole in the middle of the tent and then staked out at the corners, so when it's all said and done, it looks like a pyramid. I have personally been using a tent like this since either 2015 or 16. I can't recall which year I got it for the first time. So I am personally very familiar with the design and the benefits of this and for those hunters out there, you probably are as well, because it's very popular in the hunting industry. But Brad has done something a little bit different with these ones that I think will pique your interest a lot more than the other brands that are on the market. For those that are not so familiar with the design, you're going to learn some things and I promise you that Pyramid style tents are awesome and, like I said, I have been using them for a number of years at this point, but really only for my hunting trips, because the key feature of a pyramid style teepee or tent is that the core design has no floor, no interior mesh body. So the benefit here is that you can get a much larger tent, more volume for much less weight because you're getting rid of that floor and interior body. Case in point the four season tent Brad offers comes in at 30 ounces and has a peak height of 74 inches.

Emory 3:40

I know that some of you are probably saying but, emery, there's no floor and the condensation is probably a big issue with a single layer tent, and I hear you. I would agree. But just hold on a second. Teepee tents are a single layer shelter but they often come with an optional full or half quote nest. I love the word. It's just a nest. It's like a little tent inside a tent that you pitch inside. Once the teepee is up, these turn your teepee tent into a standard double layer shelter for the floor. But generally speaking, nests don't really work that well and they're just sloppy and gross and the implementation leaves something to be desired. And that's where Brad comes in. Brad has designed an insert for his teepees and his pyramid tents or whatever you want to call them that is easy to install and makes the inside nice and taut, like a tent should be. No slop, no drooping, just a nice interior tent and the total weight for a roomy four-person double-layer tent that you and your kids can stand up in it's just four pounds, right under four pounds. Good luck finding something even close to that in a standard design tent that can take a beating in the wind and weather when needed.

Emory 4:56

Like I said, I have been using this style tent for years at this point but never considered taking my kids out in it because I couldn't find an interior nest that I liked until now. So I tried Brad's. I loved it and I wanted Brad to come on to talk about how the heck he did this in the first place. But the design isn't the only thing I'm excited about. Brad is using a different kind of material in his shelters. That is a deviation from what the rest of the industry is doing. The result is a tent that will not absorb water when it gets wet, which means it won't sag or droop overnight when the dew hits it or the weather turns. This is probably the one thing that I find most interesting with these shelters and the number two reason why I wanted Brad on the show again to explain himself. I needed him to educate me on tent materials because apparently it's an area that I have not fully educated myself on, because everyone is using the same stuff until now and I wanted to know why.

Emory 6:00

But the number one reason I have Brad back on the show is for backpacking with kids. You see, it just so happens that when Jess and I were taking our kids out last summer on the backpacking trip, brad was taking his kid out on a backpacking trip for the first time. When we realized that, we shot a few texts back and forth and I realized we had very similar experiences, thoughts on the whole thing and takeaways, so I wanted to capture it in an episode. So here we are, so on this episode.

Emory 6:31

If you have kids and you want to backpack with them, hopefully this episode will give you a little encouragement. If you're looking for a new tent to add to your gear closet, you'll get to know what our Gali offers and why. And if you want to learn more about tent materials, then you'll get educated on that as well. I know that was long-winded, but, man, I'm just excited about what Brad is doing and I've always appreciated his honest, humble and straightforward approach to everything he does. He's a good dude with a heart of gold, and I wanted to set the stage a little bit before diving in all the way, and I'll make this next part quick by saying this this episode is brought to you by Learn how to Backpack, my online beginner backpacking course, where you can literally get up to speed on everything you need to know for your first backpacking trip in just a little over four hours, if you or anyone you know is getting into backpacking and wants to make sure they understand the fundamentals of how it all works.

Emory 7:23

Send them my way. The course is completely online, very affordable, and I have close to 200 students in the course already and I've yet to have a bad review or a refund. So I'll leave links to that in the show notes if you want to check it out, or you can just head to bylandco and find it on the homepage. This episode is also brought to you by you. Your encouragement, your reviews and donations keep this show going, and they mean the world to me, so thank you From the bottom of my heart. Thank you All right, that's it for me. Please to the podcast. I think this is like the third time man. I'm so stoked to have you again.

Brad 8:15

It's so good to be here and I feel like, unfortunately, I'm really like one of the. This is the most time we get to spend together. Sometimes is talking to each other over the podcast, which I love and appreciate because it's great to together. Sometimes is talking to each other over the podcast, which I love and appreciate because it's great to.

Emory 8:26

It's always good to talk to you yeah, man, anytime it's so funny there's people in the industry or people I bumped into that you just can have a long conversation with them and I feel like you're the type of person that you can just go with the various um topics that come up. So I always appreciate that about that, about you, man oh well, thank you, uh.

Brad 8:45

Some people call that uh, uh, the gift of gab. Uh is a pleasant way to put that. Or, as my wife would tell you, would you shut up now, because you can't talk to anybody for any by any amount of time.

Emory 8:56

And I'm like, I know, I know, I know it's no problem, but yeah, it's a good skill to have man to be able to just kind of go with the flow and kind of. There's a neighbor of mine that we uh jump in his hot tub from time to time and just like no holds bar topic of conversation, just like let's get, let's just figure things out, and so there's no reason, there's no rhyme, we just jump in there. We did it the other night. It's like snowing outside.

Brad 9:18

We're like do this, do this thing I've always been genuinely interested in people and the things they have to say. If somebody has something interesting they're into and I don't even care if it's something I'm into, but somebody's really into video games, I'm not into video games and they're just really into them and it's an interesting subject I'm happy to talk to that person about their thing. And I've always had a curiosity, interest in humans and you know gear humans Like. So yeah, I've never had a problem just talking to people about whatever it is they're into. The thing I can't do is talk to somebody who has nothing to say, you know.

Emory 9:54

That is so hard. Yeah, I don't understand the wall. Yeah, yeah, I agree, it's hard to get yourself out of that, like, get them, pull the information out. It's tricky sometimes. Anyway, all we're saying good to see you again. Yeah, man, likewise, uh, okay, we have a couple things to talk about, but before we catch up on our golly stuff, I thought it was really interesting.

Parent-Daughter Backpacking Trip Preparation

Emory 10:15

Late last year you and I both randomly at the same time took our kids backpacking for, yeah, what was it? I I'm gonna call it my first time, because we took my oldest when she was nine months old, and I'm not really sure that counts, because they're kind of just along for the ride. At that point now they were, they're three and five now, so they're four and two, um, so I feel like they were more human. They're humans now and there's a lot more that goes into it. And then you and I were. I brought one of your tents out and we were going back and forth and I was like, oh dude, you did the same thing and we were kind of chatting back and forth about how weird it was to plan for it, and at least for myself, I was almost like a fish out of water, like I didn't really know. I didn't really know, I didn't really know what to do. I knew what to do, but it was difficult. So what was your experience like and why did you end up taking your daughter?

Brad 11:12

yeah, well, I have, as any good parent will tell you. Uh, you always have this like guilt. I have this guilt about not doing enough for my kids or or having them experience all the things that I love enough, right, I'm busy, everybody's busy. So I was very committed this year to taking my oldest daughter, who's eight. I was like we're going backpacking this year, you and me, just like dad and daughter. I have two daughters. I have an eight-year-old and a four-year-old, but I really want to take the eight-year-old out backpacking because I didn't do it as a kid ever.

Brad 11:47

I didn't go backpacking until I was in high school and it was because I really wanted to. So it was really important to me to do it and it was hard to find time this summer. There was one weekend where I could make it work, one and I also didn't want to take her out too early in the summer where, when the mosquitoes were bad yep, we had a big snow year, uh, here in idaho, like a lot of people did. So I was like mosquitoes are gonna be bad until august and probably even like mid-august, because I wanted to have a really like good experience. I didn't want her to get mauled by mosquitoes and for us to be running around. So, anyways, all that. And then it was like, okay, how far should we hike? How hard should I make this hike? I don't want to make it so easy that she's like, oh, this is like too casual, but I also wanted to not make it miserable. Right, come back to like the fun part of it. So I found a spot that was like a mile and a half, not a lot of vertical elevation, but it was like Lake country, beautiful, all the check, all the box had fish in the lakes. So, yeah, that was kind of the Genesis of it for me.

Brad 12:48

And then from there it was like, yeah, like okay, I knew I was gonna have to carry every, most everything, and I was planning on that. But on principle, I needed her to understand that when you go backpacking, you carry a backpack with some stuff in it, and so she carried a day pack that had almost nothing in it, for being totally honest, but her clothes, and of course she complained about that. But I wanted her to feel the discomfort of having weight on her back. That was also important, like a little bit of discomfort. That was that's part of the process, right, and it started off. I'll just tell you, like just to jump this right. It started off. I'll just like to jump this way.

Brad 13:23

It started off horribly because there's a hike. This hike, the first three quarters of a mile, is the only uphill. It's not that steep, but if you're eight and you've never backpacked before, it felt like you know you're hiking Everest. And she, she made it about halfway up that and then she just like sat out, I can't do this, dad, this is too steep, this is never gonna end. And I was like, yeah, it'll end, I promise like I can see the top, you know. And then like so anyways, just planning for the whole thing was just like it was a whole journey.

Emory 13:54

Um, yeah where did when you so you've only. I mean, when you go backpacking, when you go hunting at least for myself, I'm used to planning for me. And then, like another, another adult and I, at least in my experience, like my wife even said to me I will never forget she was, we were getting ready to go and I kept I must have been doing something that made her question my confidence in taking the girls backpacking. And she goes hey, why are you so nervous about this? And I was like, what do you mean? And she's like is this going to be okay? Like are you worried about something that might happen out there? And I was like no, but I think what she was seeing was me. She's seen me get ready for backpacking on my own. And then she was seeing me try to figure this out with two little girls in tow and not really knowing you know, what should I account for? What should I? I was almost in that beginner backpacking stage where I was having to redo it all over again because I'm like, well, this is what works for me. But what about them? They need, oh, they need a water bottle, they need snacks. What are they going to eat? What if they don't like what I bring.

Emory 15:09

I was questioning all this stuff and I was just kind of working through it when she said that it kind of it was really interesting. It kind of brought me to the forefront of my own like awareness and I was like, oh, I think I'm, I think I might know too much about this and I'm overthinking it and I need to over, I need to like I think I might know too much about this and I'm overthinking it and I need to like I think I'm overthinking it Because we were doing the same thing. It was maybe a little over a mile to a lake we were going to be going with another family to try to like encourage everyone along. But it ended up being great. But, like the planning stage was really hard, like, do we get small sleeping bags? Should they just use my sleeping bags? And that's what we ended up going with was adult sleeping bags, adult sleeping pads and they carried a little backpack and that was great. Like that's how we ended up doing it.

Brad 15:56

I, I, I've suffered from some of the same things that you did. Um, my, most of my. The thing I was most nervous about was food like, because you I mean you and anybody with kids knows that, like, you have to be prepared for the snacks and to bribe them to do the things that they might not want to do, and just wondering, like, can I bring enough food? Is you know I can't bring everything? But also like, is she going to be? Is you know I can't bring everything? But also like, is she going to be complaining about, you know, the dehydrated meal? Like, anyways, I, I. But then I just like, I even thought about buying her a little backpack off Facebook marketplace, like a kid's backpacking backpack. And I was like this is silly, we have plenty of day packs. We have, I have plenty of gear. She doesn't need a kid's sleeping bag or pad, let's just use what we got. And that was fine. And then the other thing that I did, emery, that I'm really glad I did, was a big part of the enjoyment of going on a trip is the thinking about it and preparing for it and the excitement that comes with the prep, you know, the uh, the pre planning Right. So I pulled up Google earth and I showed my daughter where we were going. I was like, hey, I want to show you where we're going. And I showed her the trail head. And then I showed her the trail and I showed her the lakes and the mountains and like, and I said, and she got really excited about it.

Brad 17:23

And then I said, hey, let's go pick out our meal, our food. Right, like, let's go pick out what you're going to eat. And we went outside and I had, you know, a bunch of different meals. I said, like, what do you want to eat for dinner? And she's like, oh, this looks really good, dad, we should eat this. And I was like, great idea, great idea. And then, when we like on the way in, you know, she's like, oh, can I have the? You know goldfish? I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'll get the goldfish. And we had dinner. It's like, oh, can I have the? I can't remember what she ate, but I know we have dinner now, cause she was excited about the food, like she had helped. I'd like made her a part of that planning and and that was, uh, it reminded me that like it's, it's not just the going on the trip. That is fun. It's the whole thing, right, the planning, and then you know the, the preparation.

Emory 18:15

That is also fun when did you have you always done that, or is that that's a unique characteristic? Not everyone, not every parent, does this what's that?

Emory 18:24

the, the thinking big picture, the being able to like step back a second and be, because you could have very easily just packed everything and you could have just done everything like surprise, we're going on a backpacking trip, boom. But you knew something inside. You knew that, oh, maybe I should bring her into the fold a little bit on this planning. Is that a natural thing that you and I uh?

Brad 18:48

I wouldn't claim that I'm, uh, I know anything special about being a parent, but I just know that that's what I like, and so I kind of just thought that she would like it, and it turned out to be, uh, a good, good guess. Uh, I also know, just know my kid too. She likes to know what's happening, and so, by bringing her into the fold she's a curious kid too so she definitely responded well to that. I'm not sure I'm trying to think if I do that in other ways. I don't always bring them into the fold, but I find that I treat my kids in some ways just like adults, in that manner, or I treat them like everybody else. I don't know if that's a good strategy or bad parenting strategy, but that's what I do.

Emory 19:35

That's what my wife and I do as well. We try to talk to them like adults, try to give them ownership over something.

Brad 19:43

Yeah.

Emory 19:45

I feel like that's been working really well until my oldest. Now it throws it kind of back in my face Like she doesn't understand how she's trying to figure out the difference between her owning a process and her just needing to get it done because we need to get it done, like her taking direction. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brad 20:02

Oh, I absolutely starting to like I feel like it's kind of get it done because we need to get it done, like her taking direction.

Emory 20:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, oh yeah, absolutely starting like I feel like it's kind of starting to backfire, but at the same time I don't want her to just continually take direction and never question it. So it's, it's a back and forth and I think, if I recall my, my wife and I did very, something very similar. She was more focused on the girls' experience. I was more focused on hey, let's make sure we have everything laid out and good to go. So I do remember her talking about like, oh, what do you want to bring? But thinking through that I was just so used to car camping or you know, at the house and thinking of food. Oh, what can they eat? That's not. What will not. What can they eat, but what will they eat? That's not what will not. What can they eat, but what will they eat? It's not refrigerated and, dude, they did fine, they did great, they did fine, yeah yeah, it's like turns out when you're hungry, you eat.

Emory 20:55

Yeah, how did. How did the trip go like? What was your? Did you have any takeaways from it, or like what was the experience?

Brad 21:02

like yeah, and I will say last thing on that is like for, for, for me and my daughter in particular, one of the things that bring her into the fold by being making her a part of, like, the decision making process. I feel like that helps build their confidence, because the whole point of this is like I want her to be able to go do it on her own, and going backpacking is a is a way of both bonding with your kid but also helping to build their, their confidence in themselves to do hard things and things they they don't think they can do right. So it's like man, can I hike a mile and a half? I remember talking with my daughter about that. She's like I never walked. I don't know if I walked that far. I'm like, well, you have, but yeah, of course you can do it. It's not that hard. People do it all the all the time, like why can't you walk a mile and a half? And you know so, just like that was.

Brad 21:47

And so, like by involving her, like I involved her in the decision, I was like, well, do you want to bring the two person tent or the four person tent? She knows our tent line, right, she goes, dad, I feel like the four person tent is going to be have more space for all our stuff, and I was like great, great point, let's bring the four person you know what I mean Like like I'm like great idea, you know, or whatever. And then, like you know, she, she genuinely felt like, yeah, like I've got good ideas that you know she'd never been before. And I would say, man, it was just, it was unbelievable, it was a resounding success Like that. That one-on-one time is just hard. You can't replicate it. There's, there's no way to replicate it, man, I mean, she told me things she's never told me. We, you know, it was just and I was just like I was like the fun dad too. You know, for the entire time, you know, I would say, in our, our family dynamic is that my girls love my wife, they love me too, but, like, if mom is around, they're going to gravitate towards mom 100% of the time. Well, maybe like 90% of the time.

Brad 22:51

And so it was great to have that time with her and I where I could talk to her about things like survival, as we were like looking, hiking up the drainage. I asked her, I, I said, hey, if, if you got lost right now, could you find your way back to the car? And she's like, thought about for a second. She's like, yeah, we go back down the trail. And I said, well, what if there wasn't a trail? How would you find your way back down? And there was a drainage, you know creek, from the lake back down to the trailhead. And I was trying to get her to say, like, understand the understand the value of going, following water and going downhill. And then we talked about it. I said, well, if you ever got lost, follow the water back down Right, like you know, like that's going to lead to a river. It's eventually going to lead somewhere you know good. And then we talked about you know all those little things and you could see like we got to talk about this, just like cool shit.

Brad 23:42

And then, you know, we went fishing, caught a fish, cooked it for dinner. Um, you know, my kids are, they're used to eating wild game because that's that's almost all we eat, right, when it comes to meat. But they hadn't. They don't participate in the process of, like killing stuff as much, so at least at this point they don't. Um, fishing is the one exception. But yeah, it was. It was great man I couldn't have asked for. It was so much fun and it wasn't difficult. It was so easy. There were no complaints at all, other than the hike in.

Brad 24:19

She didn't complain about being cold, being hot, I mean, it was just she had the time of her life. And the one thing I'll say, the one thing that worked out really well, is they were talking about survival. I was telling her like I'm like you know, it's really important to know what, like drinking water sources, Like if you get lost, like what, what could you drink out of? I'm like can you drink out of a lake? She's like it's probably kind of dirty, huh, dad. And I was like yeah, it's probably kind of dirty. I wouldn't drink out of a lake if I were you.

Brad 24:44

But if you find water coming out of the ground and you follow it to where it comes out of the ground, you can drink out of that. And like 15 minutes later I had no idea this was here we found this bubbling spring right by the trail, I mean like a gusher coming out of the ground, and it was so cool Cause I was like I was like hey, you want to drink out of the spring. And she looks at me like with this look of like we're being rebels, and she's like can we do that? And I was like, yeah, we could do that, kid.

Emory 25:11

And so like.

Brad 25:12

I just like went down and I just like cut my hands and took a drink. I was like you go next, and she just did it and it was like small no-transcript dude there.

Emory 25:32

Anytime I start to question the. Sometimes I think I build backpacking up in my head to be something that I over romanticize it and then stories like this come up or I talk to people that it really does enhance their life absolutely like they're what, for whatever reason, and I feel like it's. It's different. I feel like hunting is very big when you put hunting in there like, but backpacking and hunting and like these like really raw experiences, when you're really having to put a whole tool chest of tools together and then implement them and you go and do a thing and you have an experience and you come out man, I don't know what it's. Almost again, I sometimes I wonder if I over romanticize it and then I realized that I'm not and I realized, oh no, this is really good for you, whether you go a mile and a half or a hundred miles.

Brad 26:25

Yeah, and we car camp a lot as a family. So our kids are not. Camping is not a foreign thing, we do it all the time. But there is something very different about putting everything in a backpack and walking into a place and then taking everything out. It's a simpler. You don't have a car, you don't have all distractions, there's not people running around, and we car camp with my brothers or my family or other families with kids.

Brad 26:54

And the other thing too, like it really doesn't have to be that complicated or expensive, like you don't have to have like super fancy gear if you're only going in a mile, like yeah, you can just take, kind of you know whatever. Um, so yeah it. And it is different, man, like, and I think the the thing that I realized too is like that no distractions thing with kids is so hard and in the world we live in today for our kids, even when we car camp, you know, even if we don't have cell receptions, there's lots of distractions, right, lots of like things happening. If there's other kids around, if their siblings are around, like lots of things are happening there. But when you go like backpacking, it's just a different. It's a different element, different vibe and totally different atmosphere you're in.

Emory 27:36

Yeah I, I have to admit, I underestimated, I underestimated, uh, my kids and the kids that this. We went with another couple and we had two different sets of gear. Ours were, I was a little more dialed in. They had more like car camping style stuff again. We were only going like a mile and a half to your to your point. It was like dude, just if you're only going, if you just go a little ways, you can always one bail if something goes bad until you can make anything work Right.

Emory 28:05

But we went to this place called June Lake. It's got a waterfall. It's on the south side of Mount St Helens and it's again a little over over a mile in and my idea was we would go there, we would camp and everyone would love this idea of this waterfall. And on the but on the other side of where you camp there's this massive boulder field with like sharp lava rock boulder fields that every year when I hike around the mountain I cross it Like if you fall here I mean one.

Emory 28:39

It's like hard for adults to cross it and I thought that just being a boulder field it really wouldn't be that cool Like I figured. A waterfall would be cooler for the kids and like a pond and looking for frogs and things, and we did the waterfall stuff. But then it got to the evening time and I think we all had dinner, but there was still daylight left and the only thing I could think of I was like, well, let's just go for a little walk over here, thinking we just go over there. And there was like a little uh, ravine. They wouldn't want to go any further and every single kid wanted to keep going further and further and get closer and get closer.

Emory 29:14

Oh, look at the rocks. And I was like the rocks, like I mean I think it's impressive. But when I say a big boulder field, it's gigantic volcanic rock. And we were probably on that boulder field for like an hour and they kept wanting to go higher and further. We had to make them turn around because we're getting too dark. As we started getting to that point, we're like, hey, it's time to go back. And I remember we, everyone just kind of went their own way this parent with this kid, this parent with that kid, and we had kids ranging from, uh, like five and a half to like two year old. And I was just in awe, man, like yeah, I was just in awe. I was like how dare I ever question? Like who am I? Like I shouldn't question this, like why did I not think of this to begin with? I thought it would be too hard or too complicated or be too scary. And every single one of those kids climbed those rocks.

Brad 30:07

I think there's just like something in people you know it's not like a new thing, like this is not a profound statement, like there's something in all of us that wants to be outside. Right, we know that there's plenty of studies who show the power of like nature, but, man, it's like we live in this very it's so funny because we talk about you and I both backpack, and I'm not even like there's like the ultralight backpacking crowd does more backpacking than I do, even, Um, and but we live in a world that is like it's fairly curated, right, yeah, like you talk about the Appalachian Trail or even the PCT, neither of which I've done so I'm way out of school here, but I think what I do know is like it gets done a lot and we have lots of gear options. You got somebody you can do like food drops, like, right, I mean, it's like it's not um, it's not like it was 200 years ago, right, when you know, if you were trying to do that a couple hundred years ago, it was a very different experience, um, and yet the thing that hasn't changed, even though, like, the gear has changed, our modern world has changed, uh, things have gotten a lot easier because of the gear choices we have today and who the hell knows what it's going to be like another. You know, 150 years from now, when it comes to the gear choices people have out there, whether or not there's you know what it's going to be like to backpack at that point in time. But our fascination and need to like escape and have those like wilderness experiences has not changed, will not change in the future would bet my life on it, you know, and that's not.

Brad 31:35

It's not different for kids, right, like they get them outside, like we think about all the things that are going to go wrong, and you get wrapped around the axel as a parent because you're like, oh man, what happens if they get cold hands? Like are we going to? Like you know, somebody gets of the experience and you do your best, but ultimately, like they don't need a lot when they're out there and there's plenty to be entertained by. And and if you just like you want them to have like a curiosity about the natural world and the only way to do that is to like have get them out as much as possible and backpacking is just a. It's a great way to do it and I think it's easy to get intimidated.

Brad 32:13

I was probably there myself too. It's like and I still am in some ways, you're like, oh man, the amount of time and preparation you have to put into like backpacking a lot with your kids seems like a lot and you're just like, let's just go car camping yeah, not a bad option. I'm not judging, we do it a lot for the same reasons. There's like we don't have time to deal with with that. But I'd say the occasional backpack trip it's, it's absolutely worth it with your kids because it's a different. It's a different experience for the kids, it's a different experience for you as a parent and absolutely worth it yeah, I.

Emory 32:47

I couldn't agree more. I had two experiences this summer, one car camp. We do the same thing, car camping. We apparently have very similar families, structures, we have two girls we do a lot of car camping. We have a big van but it was like to your point, like it's really important to do that to to get a more raw experience like in a tent. And I was very curious to see because we we kicked off our summer with a a really fun, uh, car camping trip and on the last morning my oldest rolls over.

Emory 33:16

I'm sleeping next next to her and she's like dad I was like yeah I love camping and I was like, oh my gosh, like, and then fast forward to the end of the summer and there were times on that trip when you could just tell they're having so much fun and we weren't doing anything, man.

Brad 33:37

Like we weren't.

Emory 33:39

there was not a, we weren't on a park, we weren't at a park, there wasn't. There weren't bikes, there weren't. We literally had backpacks. It was simple and they were having fun and they were running around. And my youngest, I was really curious about her sleeping in a tent and she loved it. And they both at one point or another were like just hey, thanks for making this so fun, or comments like that. And there was a moment where I was like getting choked up because, I've never been able to express what it is about backpacking.

Emory 34:14

That's important to me, but it was coming out in like an emotion, sure, and sharing in that with them was just so cool and I told my wife I was like we have to do more. I mean, I want to do all of it, but we have to do more. And to your point about you know our desire to go outside. One of the things I've been thinking about lately is 2023 massive boost in technology with AI, you know, and and it's only going to get better or worse, however you want to look at it. I'm fascinated with technology and the only thing I can think of is it's going to get like algorithms are going to get better. Our desire to like be involved in technology's going to get like algorithms are going to get better. Our desire to like be involved in technology is going to get greater because it's going to get better and it's exciting.

Emory 35:02

And I think it's going to be even more important to disconnect from it like it's going to make it more important to go out and get those raw, uncurated to your point, uncurated um experiences, because everything, everything is going to be curated. Every experience that we have in like 10 years, five years, two years, it's going to be curated, it's going to be meant for you and there's not going to be any adventure to it. And right, where's the one place you can go that has no artificial intelligence, like the backcountry?

Brad 35:39

I can't?

Emory 35:40

I mean you can choose to turn your phone off. It's just you in the wilderness.

Brad 35:45

Yeah, yeah, I don't know what. It's hard for me to. You know how, like 50 years ago, nobody would have been, could have foreseen it would be hard, I think, for somebody to predict, like, what it's going to be like 50 years in. Nobody could have foreseen it would be hard, I think, for somebody to predict what it's going to be like 50 years in the future. I have a hard time doing that now. What is it going to be like 50 years in the future from now? What's that going to be like? What's the experience going to be like outside for people? Will people even want to go outside? I know they will. Anyways, I just want to go outside, I know they will. But anyways, I just want my kids to be comfortable doing all those things I want, Even if they end up like they don't like going backpacking or they don't like they don't end up not car camping for whatever reason, which would be a tragedy but they at least have the experience and the exposure to it so they can come back to it.

Brad 36:41

I had to figure out I don't know what your childhood or upbringing was like, but I had to really figure out backpacking on my own. In a way I didn't have anybody that mentored me, that kind of taught me about gear, about whatever right. I just kind of taught me about gear, about whatever right. I just kind of had to figure it out on my own, which was its own, which was great in its own way, because it's led me to where I'm at now, having to figure stuff out on my own and learn.

Brad 37:05

But I want my kids to at least have some experience with it so they feel confident in going to do it on their own or with their friends, like when they're in high school. I want them to be able to be like hey, dad, me and the girls, we're going to go on a backpack trip and I'll be like awesome, have fun, or yeah, you know what I mean or not even backpacking, just like whatever adventure they want to go on. Right, there's a lot of, I think there's a lot of confidence that goes that backpacking can teach you about your ability to do things that are difficult or do things that are, you know, maybe outside your comfort zone, but you have that confidence that you're like no, I can do this, I know how to do this.

Emory 37:44

Yeah, man, even if you had, even if you used backpacking as a just a tool to kind of reset, you don't have to be a crazy backpacker, you can just enjoy backpacking. I would wish that upon my girls to say, hey, you should just go, you should make it a point to just go once a year and kind of reset for a couple nights and enjoy yourself and see what comes of it. Yeah man, I'm very curious to see how people experience the wilderness in the next 10, 20 years. I hope it gets better. My fear is that it gets more comfortable and people stop experiencing discomfort. But I guess that's on the individual to determine how much they feel or want to feel.

Brad 38:32

The one thing that will always be true, in now and in the future, is that Mother Nature will nature will um, continue to do what she does, which is be unpredictable, and you, you can prepare for the best of them, but, yeah, you're gonna get curveballs thrown at you that you can't, you can't deal with, yeah, um, or you can't, you can't, like, avoid, and that's gonna make you uncomfortable I think that's one of the biggest things I wrote an article years ago about like backcountry problems are real problems and it's true, Like it's true man.

Emory 39:00

The second something goes South on you. You have to figure it out. Like, and it's a real one, because your comfort's based on it and your safety. It's so raw, it's so binary. It's like you either make it better or you don't so binary.

Brad 39:15

It's like you either make it better or you don't. So I gotta. Can I tell you a funny story about that? Yeah, I had uh. So we make youtube content, and so when the one thing about youtube content that's really interesting is you get, you get mostly uh, normal people commenting on videos, but you also get just some like mean shit like thrown at you and you kind of got to just like let it roll off your back. But, um, we made a video, a film, about uh hunting in kodiak, alaska, which is notoriously, can be notoriously wet and windy and just not fun. And uh, we did a trip there. That I've done.

Brad 39:49

I've been there a number of times, but and only one time was it truly miserable, and it was just wet, wet, wet, wet, just like miserable. Like you wake up, you put your boots on and it feels like you're you've got like a puddle in your boots already and you do at like you know 5, 30 in the morning, and just you know, and there's nothing that saps your motivation more than that. Your clothes are wet, like literally just like nothing is dry, and you do that for like three, three, four days at a time, which is the way that trip was. It's just not fun. And in making the film I must have been commenting a lot on the weather and how miserable it was, because that's how I was feeling in the moment.

Brad 40:25

And this guy left a comment and he said and his comment was I didn't know, I was watching the weather channel stop complaining and just have fun. And I was like my first response is like what an asshole. And then I was like you know what? That guy's got a point. He's got a point like like even though, like I felt that way at the moment, it was like I was like, oh my god, poor you know, poor me.

Brad 40:47

I'm so wet, you know, um, it was um.

Brad 40:51

When I walked my, my thought was like, man, I should have just shut up and just dealt with it and not talked about it at all, because that was just part of the experience right Like it was a temporary experience and like I know that I've been through it before and anyways, this guy had a good point which is, like you know, just like stop complaining about like how wet it was. But at the time I was like, hey man, this is a real problem I'm dealing with, right now with being wet.

Emory 41:18

Okay, youtube's brutal man. It'll bring you right back down to earth, but you can also learn from it, man, I I try to read. They say you're not to read the comments, but sometimes maybe you should and to this point, like can't help myself. Neither can they. Commenting dude.

Brad 41:37

Yeah, I mean that's like we could have a whole conversation about YouTube people that comment on YouTube videos because, like, people say some stuff sometimes and I'm like what is your life like? I just want to know, like, what is your daily life? Like, like, had you talked to people like this at work? Can you imagine, can you?

Emory 41:54

imagine if, like they should do, like some sort of sketch where people talk to each other like they do in the comment section of YouTube videos. That would be hilarious.

Brad 42:11

I keep wanting to record, like compile the most hateful things that people have said on our YouTube videos and just like read them off with like soft music behind me, Like just reading the motivational quotes.

Emory 42:16

That would be something, because it would be hilarious but also disconcerting as well. Yeah, people are goofy in the comments. One of the things I want to get to is, when I was preparing for the trip, I was going through all of my tents and we ended up using your four-person um absaroka. Yep, dude, I am familiar with tp tents. I've used uh simeron secret outside simeron for a lot of years. Uh, once I went floorless. I basically never went back, um, and then you started coming out with these uh tp tents and you sent me one and I was like like dude, this okay cool. I've never really been a big fan of inserts. I think I sent this to you. I've seen them.

Emory 43:03

I just don't like how they're implemented but, we had four people and I was like, cool, that's a good size tent for what we had. But then with the insert I was like we'll see how this goes.

Emory 43:15

I know what you mean and and cause I was like I just hate wrestling tents. Tents were the when I was getting into backpacking this comes from somewhere. When I was getting into backpacking, I hated tents and my whole thing was I refused to buy a tent that I have to wrestle and so I ended up buying a Sear Designs Lightning they don't make it anymore. It was an amazing design and I still have it. But I bought it because it was easy to pitch and ever since then that's how I buy my tents. I don't want to wrestle them. And I was going into this trip being like, okay, I want a footprint, we'll see. And I pitched this thing and my wife went off and like did her thing with the girls and I was like I'm gonna, let's get to it right, this thing up, it's gonna take a while.

Brad 44:02

I need some time.

Emory 44:03

We'll see brad by your insert and I pitched this thing and I was like, huh, I'm walking around it and I was like, huh, that was way too easy, like. And then I was kind of looking at how the insert fit inside the footprint of the tent and I was looking for like things that were going to irritate me and they weren't there. Man, like the whatever does. However, you designed it to where it's like. Usually, usually inserts I've seen are like very floppy and like sloppy and just gross. Yours wasn't. I could get it tight, I could get it to look like a tent, you know what I mean. And there was. You know, the Absperger has two doors, but I think the insert has one door.

Emory 44:51

And so I had, like you could get one breeze, you could open up the other side of the tent for the breeze and this is the in and out. So it was kind of nice in the perspective of being able to organize where everything's gonna go, having one door but still having the breeze go through, um, and knowing had little kids and everything's gonna go through it. But I was just really impressed with the footprint.

Emory 45:13

I think it's the footprint that sells me on the whole entire, how you design your tents, man like, and not only that, but the materials, because I I want you to educate educate me and the audience on what materials are used and how you're able to make it retain so much tautness. And I'm going to say I brought it to this location specifically because I've camped there multiple times. There's a waterfall, there's a standing pool of, there's a pond and it gets very dewy, so I knew we were going to wake up with condensation. So I knew the location and I was like we'll see. And I woke up, dude and yep, we had condensation, we remained taut, it wasn't saggy and everyone was comfortable man.

Brad 46:02

That might be the best compliment I've ever had. By the way, say like I couldn't find anything to be annoyed about with your tent, which that is a great compliment, because I think you and I share a similar mindset, which is I hate wrestling tents as well. I hate it. I hate like too much connection, connecting of things and like how does this work? Is this so it needs to be?

Brad 46:25

Simplicity is really really important to me and when you use a teepee style tent it's a little difficult when you think about connecting an insert to the tent body, which for everybody doesn't know what an insert is. It's like the bathtub floor mesh canopy. You know you can zip it up for like bug protection. Maybe your audience all knows what an insert is, but, um, it's a mod. Our tents are modular, right, so you can run them just the rain fly, or you can run them with the insert, and I feel like the magic of any product happens in the very, very minute details and those are the things that take the longest to work out.

Brad 47:04

So the amount of space between the tent and the insert is something that I spent a tremendous amount of time thinking about, designing and trying to figure out the paneling for the tents. Like, how do you you know shape fabric, you know how do you want to orient the panels? And it's, uh, it's not as easy as I thought it would be when we were making, um, making everything. So it's complicated, especially in a in a uh, uh, a teepee tent when you have one center pole. So at the top, think about this right, the insert and the tent connect at the top.

Brad 47:37

So as the insert comes down towards the ground, there needs, there's a gradual separation of the tent and the the insert. So you have to really think about how do you maximize the space, the tent, but you want a little space, but you need a little space between the insert and the tent. So, getting that like just right, um, we went back and forth on sizing a lot. And then the other thing is just like ease of attachment. I don't know how you found we have carabiners and line locks. I don't know how easy you found that. Um, I'm not saying it's like the best system ever, but I think it works pretty well. Yeah, for ease of connecting, I haven't thought of something better yet, not to say we won't this is an element that I was very curious about.

Emory 48:18

That's exactly. This is exactly why I was like we'll see, I'm not really sold. I'm not sure about the insert. I knew the tent would probably be good because I'm used to that style tent. But it is the connection points and, to your point, it was really straightforward. Once I got the pole in there and I uh got it all stood up, I was like, okay, let's see how difficult it is to connect these pieces. Okay, that was easy. And then you pull them tight and I was like whoa, okay, all right, yeah, I don't, I don't know how I'll see you and improved upon it I don't know either yet, but I mean, it's pretty straightforward like, if I think of something I'll let you know, but yeah, and I also don't know either yet, but I'm open to ideas.

Emory 48:54

It's pretty straightforward If I think of something.

Brad 48:55

I'll let you know. Yeah, and I also don't like sloppy-looking tents. I don't know who does.

Nylon vs Polyester Tent Fabric Comparison

Emory 49:00

Nobody likes that.

Brad 49:01

I don't like a sloppy-looking insert, I don't like a saggy-looking tent Like it. Just I don't know what it is either, but it's visually something you're just like, ah, it's like ah, it just doesn't feel like a structure that you want to like, get inside and like, you know, really like plant plan on it being stable and wind or rain or whatever. So it needs my. You know, I think this is like it sounds really simple, but it's true. It's like a tent needs to look good, it needs to look home, it's home. It needs to look like it's firm, you know, strong, whatever. And if it looks all droopy and saggy, it's just kind of sad looking. And the abs roca also. It pitches, it should pitch really easily, right? So it's like you put the four corners in, get a rectangle hole in the middle guy out the other points. It's so fast, right. And that's the thing I love about, uh, pyramid shaped shelters pitching is it's really hard to mess up.

Emory 49:57

It's it's well, I also like that. You had two different vert. You could pitch it on the ground or you could pitch it. You could give it a little more breathing room, which if I? I think I ended up pitching it on the ground. I think I pitched it right to the ground on it. Yep, I don't remember why, I think. Yeah, I think I just wanted to reduce any sort of draft for the girls and it wasn't going to be terribly hot. It probably could have helped with condensation, but again, no problem with the condensation. I knew it was going to get there, but I was more worried about is this thing going to droop, being weighted down with water? And then what would happen? Um, when I go to pack it up, because with a I think it was nylon tents, which is I need you to educate me on that.

Emory 50:42

Oh yeah, because when, to be honest with you, dude, you're the, you're the only person, you're the person that, when you started talking about tent materials, I was like how did I not know this?

Brad 51:03

Okay, so. So I wrote a whole article on this because, uh, there's so much to go over. But okay, we'll just say, like tent materials, the vast majority of tents out there are made with out of nylon and they're really like two major fabric materials there's polyester and there's nylon, and then there's dyneema, which is in a whole category of its own right. So, like, anybody that's familiar with lightweight backpacking is going to know about dyneema. But it's so expensive that it's in like a whole different world, right, um, great material in many ways for weight, but there's some drawbacks it doesn't pack very well and it's just expensive. Those are the two big ones, right, but when it comes to weight, it's the king right now. So if you're not buying Dyneema, you're going to spend money on a tent that is made out of polyester or nylon.

Brad 51:48

And think about early days of backpacking, like 1970s, and when you get into lightweight fabrics. The lightweight nylon fabrics that were available at the time for tents were much stronger, and so the early backpacking companies that were making backpacking tents were using nylon. All of them, and the companies that make the fabric, primarily out of South Korea, were putting a lot of R&D into making lighter weight nylon fabrics, make them stronger, make them lighter, coatings, everything, all the technology wasn't there to make like really ultra light backpacking tents out of polyester that were of comparable quality to nylon. And so what do you have? You have this like cultural mindset in the backpacking world that nylon is the best. Tent's got to be made out of nylon.

Brad 52:50

Well, one of those by happenstance, they were just like let's go with nylon, they were just picked I mean I wasn't around back then, so like I'm just like what I know is what I've read, that's just what happened. Yeah, so hard to say, I don't really know because I wasn't, I'm not that old Emery's, I don't really know. But I mean that's what happened. Right, we know that that's a fact, and so I would say there's a there's a cultural mindset within the backpacking world that, like nylon is the way to go. You can make lighter weight fabrics and nylon that are that are stronger than poly fabrics, and I think that was true for a very long period of time. One of the significant downsides of nylon is the fact that it can absorb water vapor. So even though you coat nylon for a waterproof nylon tent fabric, you coat it with some sort of waterproof coating on both sides, but water vapor can get through still, and when that nylon fabric absorbs water it expands and that's what causes tent sag, the dreaded tent sag effect. And I don't care if you have you have a freestanding tent. The tent sag you're going to get isn't as big of an issue, right, because you have a pole structure to kind of keep the tent sag from really being annoying. But it's still kind of. It's still annoying, right, you lose interior space, the tent, when you start getting into lightweight tents that have fewer poles, bigger spaces between poles or trekking pole, pitchable tents or single pole tents, tent sag is a huge deal because you can lose a significant amount of usable space inside your tent from wet, soggy, wet material. The other thing is that nylon is stronger when it's dry. But the thing that every nylon tent company just glosses over very casually is the fact that nylon fabric, when it gets wet so imagine you're in a wet storm or a rainstorm, that's high winds nylon actually loses, when it gets wet, a significant amount of its tear strength. So, yeah, a significant amount. You're talking like up to 30% loss in tear strength when it gets wet. And when you get into these super light fabrics, that can be a real problem. It's a problem, right? So, yes, is nylon stronger when it's dry than like a comparable poly, like historically, like, yes, well, now you take a, let's get both of these fabrics wet. Oh, let me back up real quick. The thing about polyester is poly is polyester is naturally hydrophobic, meaning it can't absorb water. Just the nature, the chemical nature of the material, and over time I should say like, let's say like. So.

Polyester vs. Nylon Tent Fabric

Brad 55:37

From the seventies to current day, the technology for lightweight poly fabrics really caught up to nylon, to the point in which there are some incredibly strong, lightweight, ripstop still poly fabrics out there. And when we were making our tents fabrics out there, and when we were making our tents, you know and we were, I was doing a lot of research on fabric. Um, I started to ask myself, well, man, this polyester, these polyester materials that we're doing testing on, like the results are? The tear strength results are almost identical. I mean, if you take, um, not all, not all fabrics are created equally, equally right, there's lots and lots of companies that make fabrics out there. But if you take a really good premium let's say 20D ripstop nylon and compare it to a really good premium ripstop sil-poly that's 20D the tear strength results on those two fabrics can be almost identical. We take identical thread count, but one in poly, identical denier, one in poly, one in nylon. They're going to be very close to tear strength. Nylon might be a hair stronger. Okay, now get both of those fabrics wet. Put them in a real world situation where you're in a rainstorm. Okay, now the nylon has lost 30% of its tear strength because it's wet, well, now the poly is stronger. And when do you need your tent to be stronger In bad weather? That's the time where it's going to get tested.

Brad 57:03

And so when I was designing our tents, I was like, why does nobody use poly? And it was really clear why. There's decades and decades of marketing that has been done by some of these companies where they've dug in their heels and said, like polyester is a or, excuse me, nylon is a gold standard. Nylon is better than poly. So for them to change and admit and be open to new technology would mean like basically saying we were wrong, simple thing. But we were. You know who and you know humans don't like doing that. And so I felt like, when you know, using a poly based fabric, which we do, use a 20d poly for most of our tents I've got some tents coming out to use a 30d poly here in the future, but we're swimming upstream, man, like I felt like, especially in our market, like there are a lot of people still to this day who, who I've heard from, who say like I just don't trust that poly is better.

Emory 57:55

And you don't trust it. Because why? It's a strength? They've just been programmed, programmed.

Brad 58:03

Yeah, I'm open to being wrong. When you make gear, you can't just set your heels and be like, well, nope, this is the way to do it in my humble opinion, and say this is the only way to do it. We know everything. Nobody else knows what they're talking about. My general philosophy is like I could be wrong about everything we do on any given day. We make the best decision we can about making the best gear we can.

Brad 58:26

But if something new comes along and is better, I will gladly adopt it. And if at some point in time, nylon they figure out how to make nylon doesn't sag when it gets wet and it's stronger, I'll gladly use nylon. But they don't right. Nobody makes that because you can't. It's like the chemical makeup of the product.

Brad 58:42

But I'm open to it and so I think there's just like there's a lot of people who are just like hardwired. They're so used to nylon being the only fabric and they've been told by these companies making the product that you should. You can't trust polyester, you can only trust nylon and they believe it. And you know you could call that a poor business choice or a good business choice, depending on your take on it, but for us. But you know we definitely had to do a lot of and still do a lot of customer education on like. Why does it matter that your tent doesn't sag Like? Why is it important to have a tent that doesn't sag when it gets wet? And if you've ever used a single pole shelter or a lightweight shelter that does sag, gets really wet and really bad conditions, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

Emory 59:30

Yeah.

Brad 59:31

Exactly what I'm talking about. So, anyways, that's a really long answer to your question about why we use polyester in our tents. I genuinely believe it's just a better fabric for backpacking. And there are other. I'm not saying we're the only one to do it. There are other companies that are doing it, some of the you know. There are some very established backpacking companies who I've seen switch some of their tents to poly from nylon, which has been very interesting to watch. Um, and then, yeah, there were some companies who were just like nope, we're, we're team nylon till we die. And again like my philosophy is like you can't do that. When you're a gear manufacturer, you have to be open to like new products, new technology. You can't dig your heels in, or else you're a manufacturer, you have to be open to like new products, new technology.

Emory 1:00:15

You can't dig your heels in, or else you're just going to become stale yeah, you're doing a disservice to the company, to the customer, and I feel like if, if I was all in on some brand and they were selling me a nylon tent for a decade and then they switched it up, they could just tell me why. Yeah, they could just be like yeah, hey, yeah, so polyester, can I kick an ass over here? Yeah, like I don't understand what the problem is. Like you just want the better, you want the best products you can you can get, I don't know. And what was interesting is there was a we didn't. When we packed up, you'd said something about you know, it doesn't, doesn't absorb the water vapor, so that when, when you do the whole dreaded pack up a wet tent thing in the morning, you can, for the most part, shake it out and it gets a lot of that, that water, off yeah, like it's cool.

Brad 1:01:07

Yeah, kind of just like it's.

Emory 1:01:09

I wouldn't say it's like perfect, because there's always going to be some sort of water droplet on there, but, man, if you've ever packed a wet tent, it's one weighs twice as much. It seems like it takes up more space and it was just a. It was nice to just wake up to a nice. It was the one thing that I noticed. I literally was like Brad says these things don't sag, and I immediately like crawled out. I was like looking around, okay.

Brad 1:01:36

We'll see about that brad about that brad, you gotta measure out measuring rocked.

Emory 1:01:41

I walked around the tent dude, I checked, I checked the guidelines. I was like we'll see if there's any slop in these guys. I was like huh, okay, all right, I'm in and now anytime I look for tents because again I was saying before we started recording, I I feel like the tent market sucks it just sucks.

Brad 1:01:59

There's just no innovation man.

Emory 1:02:03

I feel like the response people usually say well, you should get a Helleberg. I'm like that's not really what I'm talking about. I'm saying there's no one thinking outside the box. Sierra Designs years ago. I wish someone would relaunch their tent design because they had the most. When I was getting into backpacking they had the Sierra Designs Lightning and it didn't have a vestibule at the front, it had a porch.

Emory 1:02:32

Okay, and then you had like a zipper door that had two zippers on it. One was like your interior mesh and one was the exterior tent. And I was like this is weird, but it had like an exoskeleton, Like it was a single. It was a hybrid tent where it was like a single layer up top. But then you had like, uh, the vestibule was moved to the side so it had wings on it and you could get to the vestibule through the side.

Emory 1:02:59

There was a zipper on the inside of the door off the left hand side and right hand side interesting. And so you would have this pole structure. You'd stake out the four corners, do, do do one, two, three, four. Toss your tent poles on clip, clip, clip, clip, clip and your tents up and the interior is dry and then you just peg out your vestibules on the right and left hand side and it was so awesome and I was like, oh, this is a cool, innovative design.

Emory 1:03:21

This was 2014, maybe 2015, and then and I even sold my buddy on I was like dude, you have got to get one of these tents. And they made a couple different versions of them, them and he brought his out on a recent backpacking trip, like two years ago. I was like you still have that tent. He's like, yeah, and I was like, dude, it's still badass, and no one's making tents Like it was. Just I use that as an example no one's thinking outside the box. And, to your point, I think that thinking outside the box on the material spectrum is really important and I don't see anyone else.

Brad 1:03:54

Everyone just keep, keeps doing the same stuff well, I think the what I have observed in recent times, both in like backpacking, world hunt space, fishing space, a lot of outdoor spaces right now is the the coolest things are happening are happening from small companies who aren't sort of shackled by the who knows what it is, but there's some. They're doing different things is harder the bigger you get. Right, there's a big risk. It's like well, if we switch from nylon to poly, maybe that means this tent isn't going to make us X amount, maybe we're only going to make this amount. And you have somebody who's just looking at the finances of it, who doesn't necessarily care about the innovative process or if it's something new to market and believe in the thing. Maybe they don't understand the market as well, but what I've seen is people like us.

Brad 1:04:52

I don't have a background in tent design, but I use tents a lot. Right, and so my experience with a tent is as a user and I know the things that annoy me. I don't like wrestling tents, I don't like saggy tents. I want it to be fast to pitch right, simple, simple things, and so our entire approach to designing a tent was well, it needs to be lightweight and packable. I want it to be fast pitch. I want it to have, like, be sized for a normal person.

Backpacking Gear and Honesty Trends

Brad 1:05:19

So when we say it's like a four person tent, it's for real people, not for, like you know, you know, children. And we're going to say it's a four person tent, which has always driven me nuts Right Like I'm six, two. Right like I'm six, two. Um, my buddy had a I'm not gonna name the brand, but let's say a very popular backpacking brand had a two-person tent that almost that made me laugh, because it was him in the tent and I was like, and I was, I was like man, I couldn't get half my body in that tent with you right now if I wanted to. But they market it and sell it as a two-person tent. It's a joke and it's just dishonest, right, it's just, it's a joke and it's just dishonest, right, it's just it's just like dishonest, it's a.

Emory 1:05:58

I mean, it's so dishonest and it's such a joke that there's that general understanding that a two-person tent is a one-person tent and a three-person tent is a two-person tent. That's like everyone agrees upon that because of that, which is sad, and you're like why just call it what it is?

Brad 1:06:15

Just call it what it is. You know, because, like I think again, like you think, about small companies who are trying to solve like real problems. I feel like that's what I'm trying to do and I think you get it. I don't know why, necessarily, but I think a lot of these bigger brands have become stagnant. Maybe the people in charge of design aren't doing the thing that they're making the product for, they're just you know, I don't know what it is, but it's not happening and I agree and what I've seen is like, yes, there's a lot of really cool, interesting things happening from small, scrappy brands and I put ourselves in that category that are trying to swim upstream and it's anyways, that's just the, that's just kind of feels like it's a, it's a phenomenon that I see happening in lots of places right now.

Brad 1:07:01

And the big brands, frankly, I think they're going to change, like they're going to. They're going to see, they're going to be following leads of brands doing creative things, and they're going to be. They're just going to be forced to by their customers. Eventually, we're all smart, right, people can do their homework. We don't like being force-fed things necessarily or told that nylon is better when it's not, and so eventually everyone's going to catch on. And I'm not saying nylon doesn't have a place, it does have a place. There are times when nylon is great. So I'm not trying to vilify nylon here at all. But for backpacking tents I'd say it's like I, just as of right now, my opinion is it is not a better fabric, it is an inferior fabric. Um, until someone tells me it can prove to me that I'm wrong, and I'm open to being wrong.

Emory 1:07:53

Have you had it out in some pretty nasty stuff Like yeah, oh, yeah.

Brad 1:07:57

Yeah, yeah, we had that trip where I was whining about the weather the whole time. Um, and Kodiak, which was it was gnarly Um, you know, we, I that was a wet, windy, windy trip. Uh, I've I've used our tents before we ever launched our tent line trip. Uh, I've I've used our tents before we ever launched our tent line I. We tested him for about two years. Um and I spent a lot of time in Alaska testing our tents. I spent at one point in time I spent almost six weeks just hunting, camping in the all over the state using our tents. That was. That was really the big proof of concept is to see if we could just kind of use our tents and and, uh, see how they held up to alaska weather. And they did really well. So, yes, um, had them in all sorts of weather. I've used them in the winter time when it's cold, cold out.

Emory 1:08:46

Yeah, a little bit of everything, that's one of the good things about uh I was telling you earlier that I don't know if we're recording or not, but I try to take input from a lot of different places and one of the things I appreciated about I appreciate about the hunting industry is that generally when they produce a product their clientele are not going to, they're not going to put up with shit products. That's true, like it depends on the type of hunter they are. But like, if they're going out to Alaska or they have a five-day trip or a ten-day trip or they're going cross-country to do a thing, they need their gear to hold up. So I assume that, brad and Argali, they're not going to put out a tent because it's your reputation, the community's small, you're a small company and so you put out a tent, you're going to put the R&D in behind it in the background, you're going to test it out so that by the time it gets to the general population.

Innovative Outdoor Gear and Insights

Emory 1:09:42

And that's why I think I mean, if you're out there looking at like, and you're a person that's looking for a family backpacking tent, I literally don't think you can go wrong with a four-person absaroka tp tent. Like I'm so familiar with pyramid style tents I've used them for years and the one thing that always kept me from using them for like family stuff was inserts in that whole process and after going through this whole thing I was like this is a no-brainer, it weighs nothing, like if you. That's the other thing. If you compare the weight of a four-person absaroka to the weight of a four four-person general backpacking tent, good luck like it's not even the same ballpark.

Emory 1:10:29

It's not in the same ballpark and you're going to get less features in the general tent. It's going to be cramped. You can't stand up Like my kids can stand up. You can get dressed Like when you experience the feeling of a pyramid style tent where you can stand up and get dressed. And now you guys have this new one, six person right?

Emory 1:10:50

Yeah, you can, for real stand up Like you can for real. Just walk in and stand up and you can get dressed or undressed when you experience that you're like what was I ever doing? Crawling into a tent.

Brad 1:11:03

Oh yeah, yeah, it's just a different thing, man, yeah, the space.

Emory 1:11:08

If you have the space to pitch. That's the only downside is that you need space you need space. But I would say for families that are backpacking, they're going to be going to like known spots where the footprint's not a big deal. Like it general, I would say nine times out of 10, you can find a spot to pitch it. Uh, even like a big one, like yeah it's a no brainer for me. Yeah, no, even like a big one.

Brad 1:11:34

Yeah, it's a no-brainer for me. Yeah, no, I agree, we're vigorously agreeing here. It's like all the things I wanted to, all the things that Basically I designed our tents to try and solve, all the things that annoy me about all the tents I've used in the past and I have. I'm very particular, right, like, and you're right, like the hunting crowd. I always remind people the hunting crowd will use products from anybody that makes them. They, they, we I should say we as a whole are open to any brand that makes a good product.

Brad 1:12:11

It doesn't matter if it's made for hunters or not. The inverse is not necessarily true. I think people in the ultralight backpacking world don't trust things necessarily made by hunters. They're like well, that's made for hunters, not for me. I'm not an ultra, I'm not a hunter. I've seen this with, I've seen some crossover with our tents.

Brad 1:12:27

Because our tents, you know, like it doesn't matter if you're a hunter or not, like they're made for everybody, you, it doesn't matter if you're a hunter or not, like they're made for everybody, you can use them whether you want. You know you're a, you're a hunter or not, um, but hunters are very, very particular and they do not put up. They don't suffer fools when it comes to gear, because a lot of the times, um, you're not backpacking in the warm months of the year, the summer months, you're backpacking in the fall, from you know either september through end of november, somewhere in that time period, and there's a good chance you could have some really bad weather during that period of time. That's prime time for hunting, right, and so there just isn't a lot of room for poor quality gear that doesn't work very well yep, yeah, man, I.

Emory 1:13:10

I wish the, I wish the general in the ultralight backpacking community would get on board with seeking out other product and forcing improvements upon the brands that are controlling that space. I personally, in the last I don't know year or two or something, my pendulum is swinging back to like just go with gear that works, even if it weighs a little bit more. Yeah, you know, there's a limit, yes, to this, right like there's a limit to everything. But weight is not the only thing that matters.

Brad 1:13:45

It should be a component of your decision, like I've had that pendulum swing myself Like lightweight, but not at the cost of functionality.

Emory 1:13:56

Yeah, I mean, there's a brand man, there's a brand that has a stranglehold over backpacking right now that I just it drives me freaking crazy. I'm like this stuff is crap, like they're just taking advantage of the position that they're in right now. They're not pushing the brand, they're not pushing anything forward and you wear their stuff. I'm just like how does anyone wear this backpack and actually think it feels good? If all you've ever known is ultralight backpacks, then yeah, you're not going to know any different. But the second you put on a pack that can actually carry proper weight, you're going to be like dude, what Like this is awful, like the general backpack. Ultralight has almost taken over backpacking and it drives me crazy. It should be like they need to be their own segment. There needs to be ultralight backpacking and there needs to be like backpackers, like general backpacking.

Emory 1:14:54

And then there's like the industrial, like you know, need some gnarly stuff you know, but like summer backpacking trips, which everyone does like nine times out of ten people are going during the summer, during, during good weather. Yep, like, absolutely. I'm sorry, but that's just what everyone does like. Not a whole lot of people are going to go out in the crappy months. You know who you are.

Emory 1:15:13

If you're that person and so for this one and you're, you're not going to be going. You're not covering 30 miles a day, so you're never going to see, if you go the ultralight route, you're never going to see, like the the reason why you have all that gear or you don't, why it weighs so, so less. You know you're not going to see the result of oh, I can actually, can actually feel the impact of a pound on my body because I'm like man, I'm tired, I can't get another couple miles in. When you get to that point, you can actually feel that. But for most people that are in that middle section, they just need good quality gear, a good price and it's functional and it's not too much and it just works. It's lightweight.

Brad 1:15:59

Yep, yep, dude. Yeah, I agree, same page, emery.

Emory 1:16:05

Well, so what's all in your product line right now? Right before we recorded this, I saw you release that six piece, so what all you got now?

Brad 1:16:15

Oh man, recorded this. I saw you released that six piece. So what all you got now? Oh man. So on the tent line, we've got a one person, a one, a two, four and we just launched a six person. I've got I have two more tent products coming out this spring, uh, just because, uh, I like making them and there's been the response has been very good to our tent products.

Brad 1:16:35

And then we make trekking poles. I make some trekking some. Really I love our trekking poles, our trekking poles, one of our favorite products of ours that we make, that have some accessory attachments. We have a patent pending design on our trekking poles that allows you to attach a couple of adapters to the top of our trekking poles. That allows you to attach a couple of adapters to the top of your trekking pole. Um make. And then in the hunt space, on the hunting, strictly hunting side, what we make. We've got uh, knives, game bags, um, and I have a couple new products in both those categories we'll be launching this year as well. And then, you know, I probably have like anywhere between like 10 and 12 new products in a given time.

Emory 1:17:16

I'm working on emory, so we've got a lot, a lot going on well, I feel like the, if I recall, like one of the last times we spoke, you were talking about your transition out of being a gear dealer you're, you're slinging, you're slinging gear. How much that you know. You went down that path. You started creating content and then you were like oh, this is a natural progression, let's sell some gear. And then you got caught up. If I remember correctly, you were just like this is not fun, like this part is not fun and you were transitioning because you were doing the knife stuff.

Emory 1:17:49

I think you were transitioning into backpacking gear and it's been really fun to watch your journey, dude. Like you can tell that you're really excited about it and you're passionate about it and you're thinking outside the box. Dude, I'm telling you even the silly fabric thing. Like when you started talking about different fabrics I was like what is he talking about? Why don't I know about this?

Brad 1:18:13

Why is Brad nerding out? Why is Brad lecturing everybody on fabrics out there?

Emory 1:18:16

But you enlightened me to think like, oh, here's Brad thinking outside the box, like what is this all about? And man, that just that gets me excited, you know. For you going forward and to see you continually making new products and being excited about it, you can tell that that's like what you should be doing, dude.

Brad 1:18:33

Oh, I appreciate that, man. That means a lot. I every day, I work a lot, um, and it never feels I never feel like I'm working. That makes sense. That's awesome Because I I enjoy it. I love making products and I feel like half the time I'm just making products to solve my problems and hoping other people agree with me, but it is truly, truly a passion. We've never made anything and never will make anything just because we're trying to make some money off of it.

Brad 1:19:08

I am passionate about the outdoors, and I think we talked about that at the beginning. I'm passionate about the way in which the outdoors help people connect to nature and the power of that, and I view our products as sort of a way to help facilitate that enjoyment of being outside. Right, you don't need good gear, but it does make your life more enjoyable and it makes the experience more enjoyable. Back to our. I feel like we're coming full circle here, and so I love it, man. I really love what I do and I feel very, very fortunate to be in the position I'm in right now. Yeah, it feels weird I shouldn't say weird, weird is not the right word it feels I never would have envisioned that I would be doing what I'm doing right now ever, never in my wildest dreams, but I love it. It's it's like chaotic half the time. Making stuff is not easy and you know there's all sorts of manufacturing problems you have to deal with on a weekly basis, but it's really fun. I wouldn't.

Emory 1:20:07

I wouldn't trade it for anything dude, that is an amazing, uh way to end this, talking about going full circle, like you can tell. That's, that's the intent of it, man. Um, dude, I'm really happy for you. Thanks for doing this. Thank you, yeah, of course.

Brad 1:20:22

Yeah, it's been fun to been fun to like, have we? You've been a part. I feel like you and I've known each other since the beginning, when we were just like trying to do something. You know, and now we're. I still feel like we're trying to do something, but we know, and now we're. I still feel like we're trying to do something, but we're, we're still. We're making a lot more stuff now than we first got started. It's been fun to, yeah, share the journey with you. Yeah, man.

Emory 1:20:46

Likewise Argali Outdoors. Is that thecom? Everyone? If you are out there looking for like a brand in something different, especially in the tent marketplace and you got other stuff going on. But check out these teepee tents like they are super cool, there's something for everyone. And especially if you're taking kids out in the wilderness, like I just don't see how it's you can, you can beat it right now. So, dude, thanks for being here, buddy.

Brad 1:21:10

Yeah, thanks, as always, my friend.

Emory 1:21:21

All right, that is it for episode 166 with Brad Brooks. Thanks so much for tuning in To follow up on anything we mentioned in this episode. I've included links to all of it in the show notes, so be sure to check those out when you have a chance and if you haven't introduced yourself, please do. I'm just an email away. I love hearing from you guys and I respond to all emails, so please shoot me a note at emoryatbylandco, even if you just want to say hi. That's it for me. If you're headed out on an adventure anytime soon, be safe, make great decisions and we'll see you next time. No-transcript.